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Question:

I’ve been on 500mg of Metformin (Glucophage) for about 12 months and I’ve had a good year with my HbA1c averaging 6.4. However, my Triglycerides have risen from a low of 1.04 to 2.44 and my HDL has gone from a high of 1.26 to a low of 0.96. I seem to have read that this indicates an increase in insulin resistance. I’ve also read that ACTOS might be a better medication to combat insulin resistance. Does anyone in the group have experience in using ACTOS? Is there any advantage to continuing with Metformin and ACTOS? I suspect that Metformin is having minimal impact in controlling my blood glucose; the major control coming from my diet. To verify this, this week I’m stopping (on advice of my MD) using Metformin to see what happens to my blood glucose levels and to get a baseline before starting ACTOS. — The only constant is change, learn to embrace it!

Response:

> I’ve been on 500mg of Metformin (Glucophage) for about 12 months and I’ve had a

[snip] > I suspect that Metformin is having minimal impact in controlling my blood > glucose; the major control coming from my diet. To verify this, this week I’m > stopping (on advice of my MD) using Metformin to see what happens to my blood > glucose levels and to get a baseline before starting ACTOS.

500 mg/day of metformin is an extremely low dose; it would normally be used only as a "starting dose" in order to minimize GI upset at first.  I wouldn’t be surprised if it was making little difference at that level.

Response:

This is strange   Upon diagnosis my tris were 1800 yes that is right and my cholestrol was in the upper four hundreds being on a low carb diet and taking lipitor and tricor and watching fat and cholesterol and taking glucophage, my last reading was cholesterol 136 and tris 168. So there has to be something you are eating or perhaps your body is making its own,.   would talk to the doctor about this Having diabetes has served me better than before having it. Loretta

In tribute to the United States of America and the Stateof Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife andterrorism.

Response:

This post not CC’d by email >I’ve been on 500mg of Metformin (Glucophage) for about 12 months and I’ve had a >good year with my HbA1c averaging 6.4. However, my Triglycerides have risen from >a low of 1.04 to 2.44 and my HDL has gone from a high of 1.26 to a low of 0.96. >I seem to have read that this indicates an increase in insulin resistance.

G’day G’day Malcolm, The ratio TG:HDL is a quick and dirty indicator of insulin resistance. You were 0.8 and are now 2.5   That is heading in the wrong direction and its time to take stock. IMHO that A1c is too high after twelve months.  Sure it indicates that you are technically "in control" but the TG:HDL ratio is telling another story. >I’ve >also read that ACTOS might be a better medication to combat insulin resistance. >Does anyone in the group have experience in using ACTOS? Is there any advantage >to continuing with Metformin and ACTOS?

Sorry can’t help you with the medication aspect though it seems worth pursuing.  IMHO the medication is only part of it.  Perhaps it is time to rethink diet.  I’m happy to work through it with you if you like. >I suspect that Metformin is having minimal impact in controlling my blood >glucose; the major control coming from my diet. To verify this, this week I’m >stopping (on advice of my MD) using Metformin to see what happens to my blood >glucose levels and to get a baseline before starting ACTOS.

I read Eric’s follow up. It raises an important question.  OK its a bit philosophical.  From time to time posters are adamant that they will do it with diet and exercise.  I salute those that do.  For myself I know I need some oral agents and have decided it is better to have the medication and gain the benefits of tighter control.   The question is when isn’t diet and exercise enough? What are the indicators we and our GPs should be aware of? — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

I had tried increasing my dose to 1000mg/day over the past two weeks but noticed very little impact on my blood glucose levels which started me thinking about alternatives and getting a better Triglcerides/HDL ratio with a different medication and change in diet. > I've been on 500mg of Metformin (Glucophage) for about 12 months and I've had a > [snip] > I suspect that Metformin is having minimal impact in controlling my blood > glucose; the major control coming from my diet. To verify this, this week I’m > stopping (on advice of my MD) using Metformin to see what happens to my blood > glucose levels and to get a baseline before starting ACTOS. > 500 mg/day of metformin is an extremely low dose; it would normally be > used only as a "starting dose" in order to minimize GI upset at first.  I > wouldn’t be surprised if it was making little difference at that level.

– The only constant is change, learn to embrace it!

Response:

Thanks for the offer Quentin, I’ve been taking a look at your diet and will probably adopt some of it. I had increased my Metformin dose to 1000mg over the past two weeks but it had minimal impact on my blood glucose levels which caused me start looking at alternatives; it may be that my best option is to increase my Metformin dose. I don’t know yet. I’m still considering my options. From what I’ve read so far about Actos, I’m hesitant to change from Metformin. I’m currently monitoring my food intake very closely again and logging everything I eat using the Diabetes Diary program (see http://208.56.101.119/diabetes/diary/diet/reports/Dec30-01.pdf and http://208.56.101.119/diabetes/diary/diet/reports/Jan06-02.pdf). My initial analysis seems to indicate that my carb intake is too high and that if I reduce my carb intake I should also improve my tri levels since they appear to have the most impact on tri levels. At the same time, I’m finally going to get started on an exercise program which should improve my HDL level; hopefully, tackling my insulin resistance on three fronts (diet, exercise, and medication) will result in some improvement over the next three months. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > This post not CC’d by email >I’ve been on 500mg of Metformin (Glucophage) for about 12 months and I’ve had a >good year with my HbA1c averaging 6.4. However, my Triglycerides have risen from >a low of 1.04 to 2.44 and my HDL has gone from a high of 1.26 to a low of 0.96. >I seem to have read that this indicates an increase in insulin resistance. > G’day G’day Malcolm, > The ratio TG:HDL is a quick and dirty indicator of insulin resistance. > You were 0.8 and are now 2.5 > That is heading in the wrong direction and its time to take stock. > IMHO that A1c is too high after twelve months.  Sure it indicates that > you are technically "in control" but the TG:HDL ratio is telling > another story. >I’ve >also read that ACTOS might be a better medication to combat insulin resistance. >Does anyone in the group have experience in using ACTOS? Is there any advantage >to continuing with Metformin and ACTOS? > Sorry can’t help you with the medication aspect though it seems worth > pursuing.  IMHO the medication is only part of it.  Perhaps it is time > to rethink diet.  I’m happy to work through it with you if you like. >I suspect that Metformin is having minimal impact in controlling my blood >glucose; the major control coming from my diet. To verify this, this week I’m >stopping (on advice of my MD) using Metformin to see what happens to my blood >glucose levels and to get a baseline before starting ACTOS. > I read Eric’s follow up. It raises an important question.  OK its a > bit philosophical.  From time to time posters are adamant that they > will do it with diet and exercise.  I salute those that do.  For > myself I know I need some oral agents and have decided it is better to > have the medication and gain the benefits of tighter control. > The question is when isn’t diet and exercise enough? > What are the indicators we and our GPs should be aware of? > — > Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / > New Zealand,       >#,#< [ >                     / / > "… and the blind dog was leading." > http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

– The only constant is change, learn to embrace it!

Response:

I just took a look at my Triglycerides/HDL ratio… Nov99: 1.7/1.04=1.6 (pre-diabetic; CHO=4.9; LDL=3.0; CHO/HDL=4.7) Nov00: 2.25/1.26=1.8 (initial diagnosis; CHO=6.0 LDL=3.7; CHO/HDL=4.8) Mar01: 1.04/1.11=0.9 (I started following ZONE diet in Jan 2001; CHO=4.6 LDL=3.0;CHO/HDL=4.1) May01: 1.28/1.15=1.1 (CHO=5.1 LDL=3.4; CHO/HDL=4.4) Aug01: 1.71/1.03=1.7 (CHO=5.1 LDL=3.3; CHO/HDL=5.0) Nov01: 2.44/0.96=2.5 (CHO=5.1 LDL=3.0; CHO/HDL=5.3) It looks like I need to follow the ZONE diet as strictly as I did during Jan-March 2001! I must admit that a number of non-zonish items have crept back into my diet during the year; I’ve eaten far fewer apples than I did during Jan-Mar and far fewer eggs (I was eating about 10/week during Jan-Mar and only 2-4 since). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Thanks for the offer Quentin, > I’ve been taking a look at your diet and will probably adopt some of it. > I had increased my Metformin dose to 1000mg over the past two weeks but it had > minimal impact on my blood glucose levels which caused me start looking at > alternatives; it may be that my best option is to increase my Metformin dose. I > don’t know yet. I’m still considering my options. From what I’ve read so far > about Actos, I’m hesitant to change from Metformin. > I’m currently monitoring my food intake very closely again and logging > everything I eat using the Diabetes Diary program (see > http://208.56.101.119/diabetes/diary/diet/reports/Dec30-01.pdf and > http://208.56.101.119/diabetes/diary/diet/reports/Jan06-02.pdf). > My initial analysis seems to indicate that my carb intake is too high and that > if I reduce my carb intake I should also improve my tri levels since they appear > to have the most impact on tri levels. At the same time, I’m finally going to > get started on an exercise program which should improve my HDL level; hopefully, > tackling my insulin resistance on three fronts (diet, exercise, and medication) > will result in some improvement over the next three months. > This post not CC’d by email > >I’ve been on 500mg of Metformin (Glucophage) for about 12 months and I’ve had a > >good year with my HbA1c averaging 6.4. However, my Triglycerides have risen from > >a low of 1.04 to 2.44 and my HDL has gone from a high of 1.26 to a low of 0.96. > >I seem to have read that this indicates an increase in insulin resistance. > G’day G’day Malcolm, > The ratio TG:HDL is a quick and dirty indicator of insulin resistance. > You were 0.8 and are now 2.5 > That is heading in the wrong direction and its time to take stock. > IMHO that A1c is too high after twelve months.  Sure it indicates that > you are technically "in control" but the TG:HDL ratio is telling > another story. > >I’ve > >also read that ACTOS might be a better medication to combat insulin resistance. > >Does anyone in the group have experience in using ACTOS? Is there any advantage > >to continuing with Metformin and ACTOS? > Sorry can’t help you with the medication aspect though it seems worth > pursuing.  IMHO the medication is only part of it.  Perhaps it is time > to rethink diet.  I’m happy to work through it with you if you like. > >I suspect that Metformin is having minimal impact in controlling my blood > >glucose; the major control coming from my diet. To verify this, this week I’m > >stopping (on advice of my MD) using Metformin to see what happens to my blood > >glucose levels and to get a baseline before starting ACTOS. > I read Eric’s follow up. It raises an important question.  OK its a > bit philosophical.  From time to time posters are adamant that they > will do it with diet and exercise.  I salute those that do.  For > myself I know I need some oral agents and have decided it is better to > have the medication and gain the benefits of tighter control. > The question is when isn’t diet and exercise enough? > What are the indicators we and our GPs should be aware of? > — > Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / > New Zealand,       >#,#< [ >                     / / > "… and the blind dog was leading." > http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin > — > The only constant is change, learn to embrace it!

– The only constant is change, learn to embrace it!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This post not CC’d by email > G’day G’day Malcolm, > The ratio TG:HDL is a quick and dirty indicator of insulin resistance. > You were 0.8 and are now 2.5 > That is heading in the wrong direction and its time to take stock. > IMHO that A1c is too high after twelve months.  Sure it indicates that > you are technically "in control" but the TG:HDL ratio is telling > another story. > The question is when isn’t diet and exercise enough? > What are the indicators we and our GPs should be aware of? > — > Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / > New Zealand,       >#,#< [ >                     / / > "… and the blind dog was leading." > http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

You are raising some very interesting and relevant points here, Quentin. So, what do you think is a reasonabley healthy ratio for triglycerides/HDL/LDLs ? Since this is related to insulin resistance, it is more important than I realised.  In about a month I will be getting my 3mthly blood work up. i would like to understand what the various figures may indicate, so that I can make and take intelligent action based on the results of the blood tests. Not just the simplistic this is good, that is bad, do what I say interchange that usually goes on.  I very much like to be involved in my own treatment, and feel that I could handle a bit more information than I have had to date. You have a way of describing these things in an easy-to -follow  way (all that teaching experience I guess), and I appreciate any help you may be able to give me that is not "too" technical or elaborate. Annette. Real Engineers say "It’s 70 degrees Fahrenheit, 25 degrees Celsius, Engineers.

Response:

This post not CC’d by email – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I just took a look at my Triglycerides/HDL ratio… >Nov99: 1.7/1.04=1.6 (pre-diabetic; CHO=4.9; LDL=3.0; CHO/HDL=4.7) >Nov00: 2.25/1.26=1.8 (initial diagnosis; CHO=6.0 LDL=3.7; CHO/HDL=4.8) >Mar01: 1.04/1.11=0.9 (I started following ZONE diet in Jan 2001; CHO=4.6 >LDL=3.0;CHO/HDL=4.1) >May01: 1.28/1.15=1.1 (CHO=5.1 LDL=3.4; CHO/HDL=4.4) >Aug01: 1.71/1.03=1.7 (CHO=5.1 LDL=3.3; CHO/HDL=5.0) >Nov01: 2.44/0.96=2.5 (CHO=5.1 LDL=3.0; CHO/HDL=5.3) >It looks like I need to follow the ZONE diet as strictly as I did during >Jan-March 2001! I must admit that a number of non-zonish items have crept back >into my diet during the year; I’ve eaten far fewer apples than I did during >Jan-Mar and far fewer eggs (I was eating about 10/week during Jan-Mar and only >2-4 since).

G’day G’day Malcolm,  Hey I’m impressed with your record of food daily food composition and the other information you can correlate with it. From your data it looks as though the Zone diet is a good basis for making a fresh start.  The scientific evidence tends to support it in the sense that replacing some carbs with the same number of calories of most any fat lowers triglycerides.    The catch is the scientific approach deals with the average result from the people tested.   What you now know is that the general approach works for you. Fructose doesn’t behave at all well.  There is not a lot the liver can do with fructose … a quarter ends up as blood glucose … the rest tends to end up a triglycerides and VLDL. For some people the fructose levels have been too high too long and the liver handles fats badly. Without your records and your analysis of them we wouldn’t know what was true for you. Of course I’d be asking myself "How can I improve on the Zone Diet?" The Zone deals with ratios of protein:fat:carbs but real food has so much more that might be relevant.   The AHA found fault with most every diet other than their own.  It is worth looking at their criticism in an analytical sort of a way.  Much of their criticism dealt with the worst applications of the diets they were criticizing.  I found that could be helpful in pointing out the pitfalls to be avoided with a minimum of effort if given some forethought.   Welcome to the adventure. — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

This post not CC’d by email >You are raising some very interesting and relevant points here, Quentin. >So, what do you think is a reasonabley healthy ratio for triglycerides/HDL/LDLs ?

G’day G’day Annette,  There are some things I try not to think about.  <grin> First a mainstream opinion complete with heartbeats etc http://www.bridgeporthospital.org/heartinstitute/cholesterol.html When I learnt chemistry as a kid I made the chemicals characters in play.  It made it easier to predict would happen. Act One, scene one, an American city.  (Hey I am using American units) LDL is the workers carrying the cholesterol about the city littering as they go. HDL is the garbage collectors.  To clean up the city one needs plenty of garbage collectors.   Below 35mg/dL is bad.   60 mg/dL is positively wonderful.   The average LDL:HDL ratio is about 4 or 4.5  but if you NEED a clean city then one needs fewer litterbugs and more garbage cleaners say a ratio of 3. Triglycerides TG are fast food vendors peddling fat in various disguises.  One can’t have a city without some fast food outlets. People couldn’t work there if there weren’t some.  Every city though needs some regulation.   With too many fast food vendors the workers create more litter.  The city will work if the fast food vendors have one garbage collector for every four vendors.  This is not however ideal, to keep the place sparkling clean each garbage cleaner has a maximum of two vendors.  If every vendor had a cleaner that would be even better. >Since this is related to insulin resistance, it is more important than I realised. > In about a month I will be getting my 3mthly blood work up. i would like to >understand what the various figures may indicate, so that I can make and take >intelligent action based on the results of the blood tests.

As every newbie who has been here more than a few days will realise the first objective is to discover one’s own personal relationship with food and how it affects blood glucose.  Then there comes an awareness that diabetes is more then blood glucose, it is a metabolic disease that affects fats as well.  I think you express that so well. >Not just the simplistic this is good, that is bad, do what I say interchange that >usually goes on.  I very much like to be involved in my own treatment, and feel >that I could handle a bit more information than I have had to date.

Way to go.   It is a journey that we are all on.   I am learning and refining what I am learning as I go.   I like to simplify complex situations so I am clear about my goals.   Here is how I view the diabetes CHD things in a nutshell.   Pretend that someone quite distant from you that you never the less love dearly has had CHD and you are adamant you will never let that happen again.  That is all in the past, they are safe for the moment but you have learnt from that experience.  Since they have adopted you are a role model and you desperately want them to learn too … you change your life to set them the example they need.   Put simply adopt the guidelines for CHD patients and the chances are greatly improved that you will never need to know about such things personally. I’d have a long term goal of a TG:HDL ratio of 2:1 using American units.  Some people with already have achieved that goal.Perhaps they’d like to go for 1:1   Some will have 2:1 as a long term goal and note their progress as they go. This is one of those weird times where the International ratio is different.  Someone else can work it out for us if they wish. PS notice how mainstream the strategy is of replacing some carbs with mono-unsaturated fats to reduce triglycerides. >You have a way of describing these things in an easy-to -follow  way (all that >teaching experience I guess), and I appreciate any help you may be able to >give me that is not "too" technical or elaborate.

Thanks.  I have been teaching for more than a third of a century. People sometimes ask me why I teach adults in introductory level courses.  Frankly education means so much to those who have been deprived of it for most of their lives. >Annette. >Real Engineers say "It’s 70 degrees Fahrenheit, 25 degrees Celsius, >Engineers.

Footnote to social workers.   "G’day. How are ya" is a greeting not a question. — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

LOL Quentin – I plead guilty! Thankyou for your post – I have copied it into a text file for future reference.  I will be checking out the site you mentioned too. BTW, what is CHD? No -more-shots-at -engineers-Annette.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Footnote to social workers. > "G’day. How are ya" is a greeting not a question. > — > Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / > New Zealand,       >#,#< [ >                     / / > "… and the blind dog was leading." > http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

> This post not CC’d by email . > Put simply adopt the guidelines for CHD patients and the chances are > greatly improved that you will never need to know about such things > personally.

I just sent a post asking what does CHD mean? On reflection, does it mean Chronic Heart Disease? By the way, how are *you*, Quentin? This is a question, not a greeting. Annette.

Response:

This post not CC’d by email > This post not CC’d by email >. > Put simply adopt the guidelines for CHD patients and the chances are > greatly improved that you will never need to know about such things > personally. >I just sent a post asking what does CHD mean? >On reflection, does it mean Chronic Heart Disease?

Coronary heart disease is often abbreviated to CHD.   >By the way, how are *you*, Quentin? >This is a question, not a greeting. >Annette.

Thanks Annette for asking.    Basically I am well.   I have been working out twice week in the gym doing mostly upper body weights and extension exercises with Swiss balls etc.  They have provided me with a split routine, different programs for Wednesday and Saturday.  That way each muscle set gets plenty of rest and recovery time.   I take the dogs for walks around the estuary.  I spend time in my garden.  Basically I am fit and healthy though my feet trouble me. On Monday I am back to work.  Frankly I am anxious about that.  The truth is I might or might not have a job at the end of the year or sooner. I might even have a new job after twenty years.  We are about to go through the fourth review in a year.  Many of my colleagues have already had the chop.   Some days I dig deep into the resources of cheerfulness. I enjoyed writing about he body as a city with its myriad of workers. — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

Annette Chd is coronary heart disease, the number one killer in america Loretta

In tribute to the United States of America and the Stateof Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife andterrorism.

Response:

> Annette. > Real Engineers say "It’s 70 degrees Fahrenheit, 25 degrees Celsius,

                           ^^ > Engineers.

Make it 77  2(5/5*9+32) Gunter (An engineer) SCNR

Response:

> give me that is not "too" technical or elaborate. > Annette. > Real Engineers say "It’s 70 degrees Fahrenheit, 25 degrees Celsius,

                           ^^ > Engineers.

Make that 77   (25/5*9+32) Gunter (An Engineer) SCNR

Response:

> give me that is not "too" technical or elaborate. > Annette. > Real Engineers say "It’s 70 degrees Fahrenheit, 25 degrees Celsius, >                            ^^ > Engineers. > Make that 77   (25/5*9+32) > Gunter

Still sounds like a nice day to me Gunter!  I grew up using Fahrenheit, am still getting used to the new fangled Celcius. Annette. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> (An Engineer) > SCNR

Response:

Real Engineers say "It’s 70 degrees Fahrenheit, 25 degrees Celsius, > Still sounds like a nice day to me Gunter!  I grew up using

Fahrenheit, am still getting > used to the new fangled Celcius.

Well it has only been 36 years Annette

Response:

I’m still having trouble with decimal currency….can’t seem to get enough of it !

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Real Engineers say "It’s 70 degrees Fahrenheit, 25 degrees Celsius, > Still sounds like a nice day to me Gunter!  I grew up using > Fahrenheit, am still getting > used to the new fangled Celcius. > Well it has only been 36 years Annette

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> I’m still having trouble with decimal currency….can’t seem to get enough > of it !

In come the dollars, in come the cents, out go the pounds and the shillings and the pence. Do you know that Valentine’s Day is the 36th Anniversary?

Response:

>In come the dollars…

What a memory !..one of our iconic jingles.Liked the old system better though…things were cheaper.Used to get into the pictures for a shilling,and loved teasing the local fish&chip bloke by asking,"Ay mate,how much is a bob’s wortha chips ?" >that Valentine’s Day….

Won’t be expecting a card from my bank manager then >…36th year Anniversary

Strewth,where’d all those years go ?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m still having trouble with decimal currency….can’t seem to get > enough > of it ! > In come the dollars, in come the cents, out go the pounds and the > shillings and the pence. > Do you know that Valentine’s Day is the 36th Anniversary?

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This post not CC’d by email >Used to get into the pictures for a shilling,and loved teasing >the local fish&chip bloke by asking,"Ay mate,how much is a bob’s wortha chips ?"

Strewth.   Did the fires last THAT long? Welcome back, Gargoyle.   — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

Thanks Quentin.I see from your posts that you’ve been a reasonably good boy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This post not CC’d by email >Used to get into the pictures for a shilling,and loved teasing >the local fish&chip bloke by asking,"Ay mate,how much is a bob’s wortha chips ?" > Strewth.   Did the fires last THAT long? > Welcome back, Gargoyle. > — > Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / > New Zealand,       >#,#< [ >                     / / > "… and the blind dog was leading." > http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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This post not CC’d by email >Thanks Quentin.I see from your posts that you’ve been a reasonably good boy

What abstinence … I thought you were hot? — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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> being on a low carb diet and taking lipitor and tricor and watching fat > and cholesterol and taking glucophage, my last reading was cholesterol > 136 and tris 168.

You have exposed yourself to quite a danger. Cholesterol lowering drugs ( statins ) are known to have far more problems than benefits. The FDA was advised / warned last year but … we should not kid ourselves here… Unless more people die NOTHING is going to be done. Recently , neuropathies have been detected resulting in loss of mobility in legs in patients taking statins. I would NEVER, EVER take those drugs. There is simply NO need as there are NATURAL ways of lowering TGs and stabilising lipids at correct levels. You can read more information on :  www.members.optushome.com.au/bartim > So there has to be something you are eating or perhaps > your body is making its own

In fact it is BOTH … > would talk to the doctor about this

Hopefully you find one that is up to speed on biochemistry and does not totally rely on "education" by drug companies. George

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