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Question:

> NO, cooking herbs are usually used in small quanitits.  The only herbs I > use in any quanity are mint, sativa,  and oregano.  The rest are in > small bottles

Have you ever heard of menthol?   It comes from mint.   Oil of Oregano is being used as a natural antibiotic.    Quantities may differ for different applications. Cooking herbs are often used in medicinal ways.   Plants have effects, some good, some bad, some in ways that taste good and some in medicinal ways. Thinking otherwise is not knowing the facts. But as far as I know there aren’t any herbs that cure diabetes, so we are all just batting our gums here.

Response:

Ah but you are. The subject we are talking about is a cooking herb being used as a med. Or is it a medical herb being used while cooking? Sleepy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >cc’d by email >I am not talking about COOKING herbs >>This post not CC’d by email >>>cc’d by email >>>Stay away from Fenugrek – and all "herbs" and "supplement" > I think that is way too blanket a statement. Some people would think > that it is unhealthy to cook with parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme. > Also, I take two different supplements per day. A multi-vitamin, and > fish oil. I don’t see anything dangerous about either. > Sleepy > Support bacteria. They’re the only culture some people have

Support bacteria. They’re the only culture some people have

Response:

NO, cooking herbs are usually used in small quanitits.  The only herbs I use in any quanity are mint, sativa,  and oregano.  The rest are in small bottles – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Ah but you are. The subject we are talking about is a cooking herb > being used as a med. Or is it a medical herb being used while cooking? > Sleepy >cc’d by email >I am not talking about COOKING herbs >>>This post not CC’d by email >>>>cc’d by email >>>>Stay away from Fenugrek – and all "herbs" and "supplement" >>I think that is way too blanket a statement. Some people would think >>that it is unhealthy to cook with parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme. >>Also, I take two different supplements per day. A multi-vitamin, and >>fish oil. I don’t see anything dangerous about either. >>Sleepy >>Support bacteria. They’re the only culture some people have > Support bacteria. They’re the only culture some people have

Response:

> cc’d by email > I am not talking about COOKING herbs

Many of those have medicinal effects also. Recently someone sent me an article indicating sage might be effective for alzheimers disease, knowing that my mother in law has this.   I wouldn’t dream of taking a chance in giving her anything unproven, even something we use in cooking like sage. I have since heard that sage oil can be poisonous! Herbs have real effects, and some are dangerous.   Many herbs we use in cooking were originally intended to preserve foods or to mask unpleasant flavors and odors but we continue to use them for taste alone nowadays. — Evelyn "Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst into laughter."    -Longchenpa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>This post not CC’d by email >>>cc’d by email >>>Stay away from Fenugrek – and all "herbs" and "supplement" > I think that is way too blanket a statement. Some people would think > that it is unhealthy to cook with parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme. > Also, I take two different supplements per day. A multi-vitamin, and > fish oil. I don’t see anything dangerous about either. > Sleepy > Support bacteria. They’re the only culture some people have

Response:

> As far as I know, the only good use for anything named > "wort", is to > make beer out of it. > Sleepy

I’ll drink to that… LOL  BJ

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > People are free to use what they want.  I don’t use these > uncontrolled products.  When young I had trouble several > times listening to the lore. I thought some items worked > but when I discontinued them it made no difference. All > in my mind. > It is you money and your life, so I can not tell you what to > do. > So many lazy people want your money.  Stay up night figuring > a way to get it.  The "biggies" drugs are very costly but you > do get something for you money.    Spammers do not care about > your > health but care about your hard earned money.   A few > will be back trying to sell a cure for the problem they cause, > then trying to sell your survivors a tombstone for you. > A few Docs may be in the same category. >                                                Guy >> Has anyone heard of Fenugreek Seed and its possible glycemic >> control properties? >> My vitamin store suggests this herb may help control blood >> sugar levels, however, that was the extent of their >> recommendation. Commets please. Thanks >> Charles > Vitamin Store? BJ

I’m still wondering what a Vitamin Store is?  :-) BJ

Response:

cc’d by email I am not talking about COOKING herbs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This post not CC’d by email >>cc’d by email >>Stay away from Fenugrek – and all "herbs" and "supplement" > I think that is way too blanket a statement. Some people would think > that it is unhealthy to cook with parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme. > Also, I take two different supplements per day. A multi-vitamin, and > fish oil. I don’t see anything dangerous about either. > Sleepy > Support bacteria. They’re the only culture some people have

Response:

This post not CC’d by email >cc’d by email >Well Quenton >We are in agreement on a lot of this >1) The stuff appears to affect BG.

G’day G’day Ted,  In the amounts I take the effect is slight. I most certainly would not rely on it as a substitute for the Diamicron subscribed by my GP. >2) It is extremely difficult to know what you are getting.

Also true.  Supplements I buy come from a registered compounding pharmacist. >There is an additional point I would make in regard to many active drugs >sold as "herbs" >That is that we do not KNOW what the effective agent(s) are, what the >effective dosages are, and what the counterindications are,

I think we both agree over herbs.  Many of them are sold either as standardised extracts or unstandardized.  As you say, for many of them the effective agents are unknown.  Worse than that when not standardised there is the matter of variation in potency with the time when they were harvested, variations in growing conditions due to climatic conditions, length of storage, temperature and humidity during storage.  Put simply there are a lot of variables. >Also, in the US in particular, the FDA has no jurisdiction over "herbs" >and "supplements" so they make sure that a package of lettuce contains >lettuce, and weighs what it says, and meats cleanliness standards, and… >But not "herbal" or "supplement"  They could be selling you ground rat >hair, and calling it anything they want.

They could.  Australia and New Zealand differ markedly in the degree of regulation.  Australia has tight regulation and New Zealand doesn’t. We really do depend on the reputation of the company selling the supplements.   Now that might seem pretty irrelevant say to people living in England, Canada or the USA but there are lessons to be learnt from the PAM pharmaceuticals experience in Australia. The over the counter med that caused people to hallucinate and want to jump out of aeroplanes was NOT a herb and it was NOT a supplement.  It was an over the counter travel calm medication … the sort of thing that presumably would come under the FDA description of a drug. >People HAVE died from taking Fenugrek.  As far as I know, only infants, >but I have not done exhaustive research.

You might well be right.  A retarded boy died of epsom salts given as a laxative when regularly given many times the adult dose.  People die of asprin.  People have even committed suicide with asprin. >As for curry powder, since it is sold as a food, it IS subject to FDA >inspection and standards.  Fenugrek is WAY down the list of ingredients. >  Last time I bought the Fenugrek (for cooking) a 2 oz bottle lasted me >20 years – when I threw most of it out, because it was too old.

Fenugreek has a strong and penetrating smell.  While it is typical of what Westerner’s call a curry smell, many curries don’t even include it. >Hyper will kill you slowly – Hypo can kill you fast.  ANYTHING which can >throw you hypo should be approached with extreme caution.  Herb, >supplement, med, diet, exercise.  when talking about lowering BG >BE CAREFUL

Sounds like good advice to me. Best wishes, — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

>This post not CC’d by email >cc’d by email >Stay away from Fenugrek – and all "herbs" and "supplement"

I think that is way too blanket a statement. Some people would think that it is unhealthy to cook with parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme. Also, I take two different supplements per day. A multi-vitamin, and fish oil. I don’t see anything dangerous about either. Sleepy Support bacteria. They’re the only culture some people have

Response:

This post not CC’d by email >People probably use large quantities of fenugreek in curry powders. >For those that don’t know fenugreek is the spice whose smell has >penetrative powers you can smell it through the shrink wrap on packets >in supermarket curry. >In the category of for what it’s worth: the recipes I have (ok, that I >briefly checked) call for 1 tsp (5ml) in a curry of  servings >MrBill

G’day G’day MrBill,   Thanks.  The number of servings appears to be deleted.   Fenugreek also appears in recipes for a dressing for green beans. Best wishes, — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

As far as I know, the only good use for anything named "wort", is to make beer out of it. Sleepy >Study by a hospital of some 2500 subjects and St John’s wort reported in >today’s LA Times.  Like many other "natural" and "herbal" products, St John’s >wort had an effect on medications including those taken for cholesterol, high >blood pressure, and birth control.   >Whatever you decide about fenugreek or any other herb, CHECK WITH YOUR DOCTOR >ON THE INTERACTION  WITH YOUR MEDICATIONS. >Nan, Type 2

Support bacteria. They’re the only culture some people have

Response:

cc’d by email Well Quenton We are in agreement on a lot of this 1) The stuff appears to affect BG 2) It is extremely difficult to know what you are getting . There is an additional point I would make in regard to many active drugs sold as "herbs" That is that we do not KNOW what the effective agent(s) are, what the effective dosages are, and what the counterindications are, Also, in the US in particular, the FDA has no jurisdiction over "herbs" and "supplements" so they make sure that a package of lettuce contains lettuce, and weighs what it says, and meats cleanliness standards, and… But not "herbal" or "supplement"  They could be selling you ground rat hair, and calling it anything they want. People HAVE died from taking Fenugrek.  As far as I know, only infants, but I have not done exhaustive research. As for curry powder, since it is sold as a food, it IS subject to FDA inspection and standards.  Fenugrek is WAY down the list of ingredients.   Last time I bought the Fenugrek (for cooking) a 2 oz bottle lasted me 20 years – when I threw most of it out, because it was too old. Hyper will kill you slowly – Hypo can kill you fast.  ANYTHING which can throw you hypo should be approached with extreme caution.  Herb, supplement, med, diet, exercise.  when talking about lowering BG BE CAREFUL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > This post not CC’d by email >cc’d by email >Stay away from Fenugrek – and all "herbs" and "supplement" > G’day G’day Ted, >   Most people recognise and opinion when they see it. >YES, Fenugreek can sometimes drop your BG – DROP, not control.  It can >kill you in a flash. > For three years I have taken Glucon which contains amongst other > things 50 mg of 4:1 extract of fenugreek. (So far no flashes have been > reported in my vicinity  and any reports of my death are greatly > exaggerated. I am not yet looking for a ghost writer. <grin>)   > It doesn’t make a dramatic difference to my blood glucose levels. > When I have stopped and restarted it for some reason there appears to > be a 10% difference. > What would be unwise is experimenting with uncontrolled doses of > fenugreek. >You have no way of knowing what dosage of the active ingredients are in >any of the stuff > Unfortunately one is dependent on the reputation of individual > supplement manufacturers. Some are reliable, some are scum bags. > Legislation has so far been shown to be ineffective in regulating the > industry. >You are probably safe with most curry powders. > People probably use large quantities of fenugreek in curry powders. > For those that don’t know fenugreek is the spice whose smell has > penetrative powers you can smell it through the shrink wrap on packets > in supermarket curry. >>Has anyone heard of Fenugreek Seed and its possible glycemic control >>properties? >>My vitamin store suggests this herb may help control blood sugar levels, >>however, that was the extent of their recommendation. Commets please. >>Thanks >>Charles

Response:

This post not CC’d by email >cc’d by email >Stay away from Fenugrek – and all "herbs" and "supplement"

G’day G’day Ted,   Most people recognise and opinion when they see it. >YES, Fenugreek can sometimes drop your BG – DROP, not control.  It can >kill you in a flash.

For three years I have taken Glucon which contains amongst other things 50 mg of 4:1 extract of fenugreek. (So far no flashes have been reported in my vicinity  and any reports of my death are greatly exaggerated. I am not yet looking for a ghost writer. <grin>)   It doesn’t make a dramatic difference to my blood glucose levels. When I have stopped and restarted it for some reason there appears to be a 10% difference. What would be unwise is experimenting with uncontrolled doses of fenugreek. >You have no way of knowing what dosage of the active ingredients are in >any of the stuff

Unfortunately one is dependent on the reputation of individual supplement manufacturers. Some are reliable, some are scum bags. Legislation has so far been shown to be ineffective in regulating the industry. >You are probably safe with most curry powders.

People probably use large quantities of fenugreek in curry powders. For those that don’t know fenugreek is the spice whose smell has penetrative powers you can smell it through the shrink wrap on packets in supermarket curry. > Has anyone heard of Fenugreek Seed and its possible glycemic control > properties? > My vitamin store suggests this herb may help control blood sugar levels, > however, that was the extent of their recommendation. Commets please. > Thanks > Charles

– Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

Study by a hospital of some 2500 subjects and St John’s wort reported in today’s LA Times.  Like many other "natural" and "herbal" products, St John’s wort had an effect on medications including those taken for cholesterol, high blood pressure, and birth control.   Whatever you decide about fenugreek or any other herb, CHECK WITH YOUR DOCTOR ON THE INTERACTION  WITH YOUR MEDICATIONS. Nan, Type 2

Response:

Has anyone heard of Fenugreek Seed and its possible glycemic control properties? My vitamin store suggests this herb may help control blood sugar levels, however, that was the extent of their recommendation. Commets please. Thanks Charles

Response:

It might be helpful, consider the below.  The first is a general survey and the second results of research with t2 folk.  My advice in using anything like this is to consider that there is no silver bullit pill or substance to substitute for the long term exercise, weight control, and control of carbs as the first steps, aided by meds and/or suppliments. http://www.diabetesforum.net/eng_diet_Fenugreek_Seeds.htm http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z3E8329F5 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Has anyone heard of Fenugreek Seed and its possible glycemic control >properties? >My vitamin store suggests this herb may help control blood sugar levels, >however, that was the extent of their recommendation. Commets please. >Thanks >Charles

Response:

cc’d by email Stay away from Fenugrek – and all "herbs" and "supplement" YES, Fenugreek can sometimes drop your BG – DROP, not control.  It can kill you in a flash. You have no way of knowing what dosage of the active ingredients are in any of the stuff You are probably safe with most curry powders. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Has anyone heard of Fenugreek Seed and its possible glycemic control > properties? > My vitamin store suggests this herb may help control blood sugar levels, > however, that was the extent of their recommendation. Commets please. > Thanks > Charles

Response:

> Has anyone heard of Fenugreek Seed and its possible glycemic > control properties? > My vitamin store suggests this herb may help control blood > sugar levels, however, that was the extent of their > recommendation. Commets please. Thanks > Charles

Vitamin Store? BJ

Response:

People are free to use what they want.  I don’t use these uncontrolled products.  When young I had trouble several times listening to the lore. I thought some items worked but when I discontinued them it made no difference. All in my mind. It is you money and your life, so I can not tell you what to do. So many lazy people want your money.  Stay up night figuring a way to get it.  The "biggies" drugs are very costly but you do get something for you money.    Spammers do not care about your health but care about your hard earned money.   A few will be back trying to sell a cure for the problem they cause, then trying to sell your survivors a tombstone for you. A few Docs may be in the same category.                                                Guy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Has anyone heard of Fenugreek Seed and its possible glycemic > control properties? > My vitamin store suggests this herb may help control blood > sugar levels, however, that was the extent of their > recommendation. Commets please. Thanks > Charles >Vitamin Store? BJ

Response:

Question:

i found whats below on a web site that talked about the dangers or effects of aspartame. there are some people in here i just wont trust no matter what they say. but to newer members or if you  have not yet joined the ( hey i disagree with what you said so im going to insult you and then lie about the reasons i insult you gang) you might want to try this at home lol or not.  might be a good idea to ask your doctor before you do. do people really take 16 tablets of this stuff at a time? i never had it in my house so i don’t know. i see no mention of stevia or anything else harmful about what you are saying. here is what the page said – Take a small glass of warm water (or a cup of coffee) and drop into it 16 equal tablets. Dissolve and drink straight down (it tastes pretty bad though). 16 tablets is equal to drinking two cans of diet coke (although it takes time to drink two cans of soda). Write down the time in which you ingested the drink. Now, for the next hour, write down any effects you feel (if any). If you are a Diabetic then please take a blood sugar reading before you ingest the tablets, and again 30 minutes after, then finally, take a new reading one hour after the ingestion. Write down the results and pay close attention to any abnormal feeling you may have. i really don’t think the test above is complete. what kind of foods should you eat before doing it? is it the food or the aspartame that caused what ever happen? lol o well.  i still don’t see why you should be getting insulted lol and receive abusive emails from people in this group. this is the web site where i found this http://www.bradymax.com/nzaa through collective knowledge is how we learn – sorry if this upsets the aspartame fans in here. — http://www.diabetes.org Shadow-Spirit 39 – Male – Type – 2 Dx’d January 27, 2003 330lbs now 264 A1C = 5.1 July 15

Response:

> there are some people in here i just wont trust no matter what they say.

Trust this FishBoy You are a an idiot, take your stupid tests and play in traffic. — Ronnie Ruff So shines a good deed in a weary world.                        –Willy Wonka– I pray for the power. To turn it around. I’m too old to die young. And too young to die now.           Warren Zevon 1980 http://www.livejournal.com/users/ronnie_in_dc

Response:

> i found whats below on a web site that talked about the dangers or effects of aspartame. > there are some people in here i just wont trust no matter what they say. > but to newer members or if you  have not yet joined the ( hey i disagree

with what you said so im going to insult you > and then lie about the reasons i insult you gang) > you might want to try this at home lol or not.  might be a good idea to

ask your doctor before you do. > do people really take 16 tablets of this stuff at a time? i never had it

in my house so i don’t know. > i see no mention of stevia or anything else harmful about what you are

saying. Tablets?  Equal comes in tablets now?  Last time I checked, it was saccarine that came in tablets. > here is what the page said – > Take a small glass of warm water (or a cup of coffee) and drop into it 16

equal tablets. Dissolve and drink straight down (it tastes > pretty bad though). 16 tablets is equal to drinking two cans of diet coke

(although it takes time to drink two cans of soda). Write > down the time in which you ingested the drink. Now, for the next hour,

write down any effects you feel (if any). If you are a > Diabetic then please take a blood sugar reading before you ingest the

tablets, and again 30 minutes after, then finally, take a new > reading one hour after the ingestion. Write down the results and pay close

attention to any abnormal feeling you may have. No thanks.  I can think of a few things I’d like to suggest that YOU try in water, or any other drink, but you are probably stupid enough to try it, so I shall restrain myself.  *L* > i really don’t think the test above is complete. > what kind of foods should you eat before doing it? > is it the food or the aspartame that caused what ever happen? > lol o well.  i still don’t see why you should be getting insulted > lol and receive abusive emails from people in this group. > this is the web site where i found this

The troll, pushing lies again. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

Response:

>Tablets?  Equal comes in tablets now?  Last time I checked, it was saccarine >that came in tablets.

Here’s a clue. Before you go off half-cocked, Frumpy, get out more often. http://www.medshopexpress.com/154592.html

Response:

> >Tablets?  Equal comes in tablets now?  Last time I checked, it was saccarine >that came in tablets. > Here’s a clue. > Before you go off half-cocked, Frumpy, get out more often. > http://www.medshopexpress.com/154592.html

Yeah i love to buy my health stuff at the equivalent of argos, it gives me so much more confidence in what i’m buying

Response:

> Tablets?  Equal comes in tablets now?  Last time I checked, it was > saccarine that came in tablets.

We have had tablets for most popular sweeteners for years here in Oz, much simpler to use I reckon.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > i found whats below on a web site that talked about the dangers or effects of aspartame. > there are some people in here i just wont trust no matter what they say. > but to newer members or if you  have not yet joined the ( hey i disagree with what you said so im going to insult you > and then lie about the reasons i insult you gang) > you might want to try this at home lol or not.  might be a good idea to ask your doctor before you do. > do people really take 16 tablets of this stuff at a time? i never had it in my house so i don’t know. > i see no mention of stevia or anything else harmful about what you are saying. > here is what the page said – > Take a small glass of warm water (or a cup of coffee) and drop into it 16 equal tablets. Dissolve and drink straight down (it tastes > pretty bad though). 16 tablets is equal to drinking two cans of diet coke (although it takes time to drink two cans of soda). Write > down the time in which you ingested the drink. Now, for the next hour, write down any effects you feel (if any). If you are a > Diabetic then please take a blood sugar reading before you ingest the tablets, and again 30 minutes after, then finally, take a new > reading one hour after the ingestion. Write down the results and pay close attention to any abnormal feeling you may have.

. . .    Tried it    No effect on blood sugar    No "odd" feelings    Looked at my drivers license,  noted again that I hold the World Record for Old Age,  subclass:  men in my maternal family.  (2nd oldest ever in paternal family)  Noted that few if any of the also-rans had the opportunity to ingest aspertame.   Regards   Old Al

Response:

Question:

> Well , plenty replied to others post to this subject . This is not the > first time this has happined . I must be in A-Lot of filters !!! > I feel abandoned ( at a time when my life is a total mess ), mabe I > "fed the trolls" too much in the past . > Whatever the reason , I will just lurk and mabe drop-out of ASD now . > Tim Kettring

Dear Tim, Feeling that way comes not from others, but from within our selves.   We all get that way, and healing from it is something we do ourselves. Tune in to spirit and feel the loving energy of the universe.   If you want to call it "god" then go ahead, but it isn’t that simple.   Do something physical.   Go for a run or at least a walk, especially out in nature. Play with a cat or pet a dog.   Help someone who is in worse shape than you are.   Get your mind off your self and think globally. Every thing you are feeling can and will change if you give it a little time and dwell in positive thoughts rather than negative ones.   You have power over your own mind, no one else does.    Make up your mind to think positively and globally and selflessly and your mood will change.   I promise it. Even if it is a struggle every day, you can beat that kind of feeling if you take it one day at a time and follow what I suggest. — Evelyn "Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst into laughter."    -Longchenpa

Response:

tim kettring said this… > Johnny Cash died of diabetes complications the radio said each news break . > tim

I’ve felt totally pissed off over this all day. I grew up with Johnny Cash playing in the house. "Live at San Quentin" was probably the first live concert recording I ever heard. God rest the Man in Black. At least what was turning into a year of personal tragedy for him is now over. We are left with a legacy of timeless and finely crafted music from a fellow diabetic which will last for many, many years. Ratty — www.flyingrat.net

Response:

It happens to me all the time tim. I don’t take it personally though. Lots of times when people are reading a thread, they read them all before responding to make sure that somebody else hasn’t already said the same thing, and then go back and respond to one of them. I’m sorry you’re feeling abandoned and I hope you stay. I always enjoy your posts and would never intentionally leave you out. — Cheri

>Well , plenty replied to others post to this subject . This is not the >first time this has happined . I must be in A-Lot of filters !!! >I feel abandoned ( at a time when my life is a total mess ), mabe I >"fed the trolls" too much in the past . >Whatever the reason , I will just lurk and mabe drop-out of ASD now . >Tim Kettring

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Johnny Cash died of diabetes complications the radio said each news break . > tim

Response:

John Ritter Just died today of a burst artery in his heart during the taping of his newwest show.. He will be sadly missed… Conni Brady Aspartame Awareness www.bradymax.com/nzaa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Johnny Cash died of diabetes complications the radio said each news break . > tim

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>Johnny Cash died of diabetes complications the radio said each news break . >tim

Yep.  Kind of hard to miss it when they report it every hour. And although the cause of death was diabetes complications, keep in mind that he’d subjected his body to a lot of stress over the years (alcholism, addiction, poor diet) that probably made his condition a lot worse than it had to be. FW

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Johnny Cash died of diabetes complications the radio said each news break . tim

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> Johnny Cash died of diabetes complications the radio said each news break . > tim

Rest in peace Johnny.  Give June a hug for us!  We’ll miss you.  The man in black now wears angel white!

Response:

Well , plenty replied to others post to this subject . This is not the first time this has happined . I must be in A-Lot of filters !!! I feel abandoned ( at a time when my life is a total mess ), mabe I "fed the trolls" too much in the past . Whatever the reason , I will just lurk and mabe drop-out of ASD now . Tim Kettring – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Johnny Cash died of diabetes complications the radio said each news break . > tim

Response:

Tim, How could you have been abandoned when you and I talk daily all day up into the night? Thanks alot. Diana

> Well , plenty replied to others post to this subject . This is not the > first time this has happined . I must be in A-Lot of filters !!! > I feel abandoned ( at a time when my life is a total mess ), mabe I > "fed the trolls" too much in the past . > Whatever the reason , I will just lurk and mabe drop-out of ASD now . > Tim Kettring

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Johnny Cash died of diabetes complications the radio said each news break . > tim

Response:

Lipitor is a medication used to treat high cholesterol and high triglycerides. Buy order Lipitor and feel better today!

Question:

Preston: One more article that just recently became available online in full. (I am finding that articles that were only available online a year or so ago as abstracts are now becoming available in full on some journals. Hence, I am reviewing some of my older printouts. Unfortunately, there are other journals that have become more restrictive even on older articles.) "Hepatic accumulation of lipid substrates perturbs apolipoproteinB-100 (apoB) metabolism in insulin-resistant, obese subjects and may account for increased risk of cardiovascular disease. … In conclusion, in visceral obesity, atorvastatin increased hepatic clearance of all apoB-containing lipoproteins, whereas fish oils decreased hepatic secretion of VLDL-apoB. The differential effects of atorvastatin and fish oils on apoB kinetics support their combined use in correcting defective apoB metabolism in obese, insulin-resistant subjects." Source: Regulatory Effects of HMG CoA Reductase Inhibitor and Fish Oils on Apolipoprotein B-100 Kinetics in Insulin-Resistant Obese Male Subjects With Dyslipidemia http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/51/8/2377 (Read the whole article and some of the articles citing this article.) Frank – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> As the original poster here, thanks for your many comments.  No, I am not a doc. or scientist, just a science-interested layreader (especially about my own conditions .  However, I think I’ve left my diab. specialist a little in the dust as he still believes that trigs are not an individual risk factor in CAD/CVD while all of the newer literature implicate trigs almost beyond question.  (snipped)

Response:

Frank et al– Looks like I’m going to be burping up fish oil again since you apparently need 10g. or more daily to affect the profile (apparently the alpha-linolenic acid in flaxseed oil has no impact on hTG). I’m also wondering whether to go with fenofibrate of the older gemfibrozil for lowering my TG’s.  While the newer fenofibrate seems somewhat more effective in that regard it also increases homocysteine by 40-50% in clinical trials!  While there’s no solid, final evidence that homocysteine is an independent market for CAD/CVD I don’t think I want to take that chance.  Comments? -Preston – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Preston: > One more article that just recently became available online in full. (I > am finding that articles that were only available online a year or so > ago as abstracts are now becoming available in full on some journals. > Hence, I am reviewing some of my older printouts. Unfortunately, there > are other journals that have become more restrictive even on older > articles.) > "Hepatic accumulation of lipid substrates perturbs apolipoproteinB-100 > (apoB) metabolism in insulin-resistant, obese subjects and may account > for increased risk of cardiovascular disease. … In conclusion, in > visceral obesity, atorvastatin increased hepatic clearance of all > apoB-containing lipoproteins, whereas fish oils decreased hepatic > secretion of VLDL-apoB. The differential effects of atorvastatin and > fish oils on apoB kinetics support their combined use in correcting > defective apoB metabolism > in obese, insulin-resistant subjects." Source: Regulatory Effects of HMG > CoA Reductase Inhibitor and Fish Oils on Apolipoprotein B-100 Kinetics > in Insulin-Resistant Obese Male Subjects With Dyslipidemia > http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/51/8/2377 (Read > the whole article and some of the articles citing this article.) > Frank > As the original poster here, thanks for your many comments.  No, I

am not a doc. or scientist, just a science-interested layreader (especially about my own conditions .  However, I think I’ve left my diab. specialist a little in the dust as he still believes that trigs are not an individual risk factor in CAD/CVD while all of the newer literature implicate trigs almost beyond question.  (snipped)

Response:

All– As the original poster here, thanks for your many comments.  No, I am not a doc. or scientist, just a science-interested layreader (especially about my own conditions .  However, I think I’ve left my diab. specialist a little in the dust as he still believes that trigs are not an individual risk factor in CAD/CVD while all of the newer literature implicate trigs almost beyond question.  He agrees to add a fibrate to my Lipitor "it I really want it" for my trigs.  While he prefers fenofibrate (Tricor) I’ve read lately (Medline abstracts) that fenofibrate tends to elevate serum homocysteine more than does fenfibozil–while further depressing LDL.  I think my beta-blocker and thiazide diuretic also amplify my trigs a bit too.  My LDL is already very low at 40.  My concerns relate more directly to my elevated trigs and their corresponding increased VLDL and Chylomicron remnants which are generally small, dense and athergenic.  Gemfibrozil seems to better impact the LpL lipace catabolism of those smaller ch. esthers than does fenofibrate.  However, there remain those nasty earlier discussions about gemfibrozil’s relationship to the ill-fated Baycor. I started taking flaxseed oil but stopped when I read the abstracts that concluded that flaxseed’s alpha-linolenic acid parent of the fish oils was not effective in lowering TG’s.  Looks like you just have to take all those fish oils caps directly up to 10 g./day.  Even at 2g’s I burp up that crap all day.  Oh, well. I’m no also a little concerned about possibly having nephrotic syndrome (NS).  However while my uric acid levels are borderline high I don’t seem to be showing large amounts of proetin in my usine but have had some chronic hemostasis.  Bilateral retrogrades and cystos, however, have turned up no source for the blood–determined as a "chronic undetermined condition".  NS could explain the elevated trig levels as well, but I’m more inclined to lay the blame on metabolic syndrome rather than NS which is rather rare by comparrison.  So what is the verdict here–fenofibrate/Lipitor or gemfibrozil/Lipitor? As a side discussion, my homocysteine level runs around 7.5–not high but not low either.  I’m taking CoQ10, curcumin w/biperine and trimethylglycine (TMG) to lower it further but haven’t been re-tested yet.  Any other ideas on lowering homocysteine? Thanks. Thanks, -Preston – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I expect that finally explains my 4.6 A1c a month after intestinal > surgery. I always thought it was a couple of weeks on IV, and insulin > shots,(but only if Bg was 200 or over!) as opposed to my oral meds. > Sleepy >Preston: >(snipped) my entire lipid profile improved for the year that I paid >regular visits to my local Red Cross to donate blood. They really loved >me since I was CMV negative as well, … (snipped) >I am also CMV negative. They have a special donation day for the CMV >negatives here locally. >In a MHD post Dr. Biggs impact of giving blood donations on the HbA1c >levels >in response to the following: >>  I’ve had Type II for about 9 years, and seem to have finally gotten it >> under control. Recently I also started donating blood. My question is this. >> If I donate blood within a month or so before getting an HbA1c test, am I >> going to produce erroroneus results? >"Absolutely yes. >The HBA1c goes down after new blood production is increased, either in >response to blood loss or due to the increased blood volume requirement >of >pregnancy. >The best example of this is in a May 1983 Diabetes Care article. The >450cc >volume is typical of a blood donation. >Here is the abstract: >’Nondiabetic adult subjects (N = 12) were studied to determine the >effect of >an approximately 450-ml acute blood loss upon glycosylated hemoglobin >measurements. After blood loss, the hematocrit significantly decreased >by >week 1 (P less than 0.001) and the reticulocyte count peaked by week 2. >All >glycosylated hemoglobins measured showed significant decreases post >blood >loss. The nadir was at week 4 for total A1, A1c, and irreversible A1c by >high-pressure liquid chromatography (HPLC), and at week 6 for >irreversible >A1 by HPLC and A1 by electrophoresis. The mean percent decrease in >glycosylated hemoglobins ranged from 4.6% (irreversible A1 by HPLC) to >8.6% >(total A1c by HPLC).’ >I would still encourage you to donate blood.  Let your doctor know what >you >are doing so he can factor in the expected drop in your HbA1c. >William C Biggs MD" >http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=tbst0fe84a… >Frank > OK, so what’s the speed of dark?

Response:

As far as I know we have ONE doctor who posts here that you can count on helping and that is Dr William Biggs. We also have a nurse who posts here and that is RuthieGal from Michigan. May be others but I myself am not aware. As for the three you mention I don’t know them but almost all of us are diabetics with experience some more than others. As for the Lipitor I don’t remember my dose but I had to go off it as it did muscle damage to me and I can barely walk now.  My sister takes it and has for years and it doesn’t do her that same way so this is where we get the term YMMV (your mileage may vary) Di

>Frank Roy >Preston: > Are y’all doctors?  I surely am lost by the post…..I am taking Lipitor > also,… 40 mgs which seems a lot to me….they keep doubling it every few > months……Jerri

http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

Response:

When I worked at the hospital CMV meant this Cytomegalovirus. Di

>y local Red Cross to donate blood. They really loved>me since I was CMV > negative > What is CMV negative?  Is that like me…I am A negative with a D antibody? > Jerri

http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

Response:

>> >Frank Roy >Preston: > Are y’all doctors?  I surely am lost by the post…..I am taking >Lipitor > also,… 40 mgs which seems a lot to me….they keep doubling it >every few > months……Jerri >http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

We have all types of diabetics here. A few of them are engineers, or were physics majors, or are in other highly technical fields. They post a lot of info that baffles the hell outta me. I try to read it though. The more I read it, the more I can understand it. I have gone from 0% understood to maybe 5% understood…..on a good day that is. That is what makes this group so interesting is the makeup of it’s members. Just goes to show that this disease does’nt dicriminate. You have your techies, your support people, your humorists, and a few a holes. Most people who respond are sincere in their beliefs. The good thing is that everything is open to honest debate, and that is how we arrive at a concensus..of sorts. The only Dr. that posts is Dr. Biggs. Chung is a crackpot troll, that if he hasn’t lost his license to practice, should, and soon, and Jai is a crackpot troll that isn’t even an MD.   Sleepy OK, so what’s the speed of dark?

Response:

>y local Red Cross to donate blood. They really loved>me since I was CMV

negative What is CMV negative?  Is that like me…I am A negative with a D antibody?   Jerri                                        http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

Response:

I expect that finally explains my 4.6 A1c a month after intestinal surgery. I always thought it was a couple of weeks on IV, and insulin shots,(but only if Bg was 200 or over!) as opposed to my oral meds. Sleepy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Preston: >(snipped) my entire lipid profile improved for the year that I paid >regular visits to my local Red Cross to donate blood. They really loved >me since I was CMV negative as well, … (snipped) >I am also CMV negative. They have a special donation day for the CMV >negatives here locally. >In a MHD post Dr. Biggs impact of giving blood donations on the HbA1c >levels >in response to the following: >  I’ve had Type II for about 9 years, and seem to have finally gotten it > under control. Recently I also started donating blood. My question is this. > If I donate blood within a month or so before getting an HbA1c test, am I > going to produce erroroneus results? >"Absolutely yes. >The HBA1c goes down after new blood production is increased, either in >response to blood loss or due to the increased blood volume requirement >of >pregnancy. >The best example of this is in a May 1983 Diabetes Care article. The >450cc >volume is typical of a blood donation. >Here is the abstract: >’Nondiabetic adult subjects (N = 12) were studied to determine the >effect of >an approximately 450-ml acute blood loss upon glycosylated hemoglobin >measurements. After blood loss, the hematocrit significantly decreased >by >week 1 (P less than 0.001) and the reticulocyte count peaked by week 2. >All >glycosylated hemoglobins measured showed significant decreases post >blood >loss. The nadir was at week 4 for total A1, A1c, and irreversible A1c by >high-pressure liquid chromatography (HPLC), and at week 6 for >irreversible >A1 by HPLC and A1 by electrophoresis. The mean percent decrease in >glycosylated hemoglobins ranged from 4.6% (irreversible A1 by HPLC) to >8.6% >(total A1c by HPLC).’ >I would still encourage you to donate blood.  Let your doctor know what >you >are doing so he can factor in the expected drop in your HbA1c. >William C Biggs MD" >http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=tbst0fe84a… >Frank

OK, so what’s the speed of dark?

Response:

Unless I have anything other than the transient side affects from the Zocor, I think my next checkup will be in 6 months.  That is a long way off.  I will try to report on the findings. My tour in Germany from 1985 to 1989 keeps me off of the eligible blood donor lists.  I wonder if George would approve of the blood letting that goes on at my work place? Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Interesting, Bob, keep me posted on the Zocor.  One thing I noticed > was that not just my serum ferrite but my entire lipid profile > improved for the year that I paid regular visits to my local Red Cross > to donate blood.  They really loved me since I was CMV negative as > well, but for some reason I couldn’t keep up my hemo to continue > qualifying.  There’s something to be said for a little > blood-letting…just ask George Washington > -Preston

Response:

>Frank Roy >Preston:

Are y’all doctors?  I surely am lost by the post…..I am taking Lipitor also,… 40 mgs which seems a lot to me….they keep doubling it every few months……Jerri                                        http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

Response:

Preston: (snipped) my entire lipid profile improved for the year that I paid regular visits to my local Red Cross to donate blood. They really loved me since I was CMV negative as well, … (snipped) I am also CMV negative. They have a special donation day for the CMV negatives here locally. In a MHD post Dr. Biggs impact of giving blood donations on the HbA1c levels in response to the following: >  I’ve had Type II for about 9 years, and seem to have finally gotten it > under control. Recently I also started donating blood. My question is this. > If I donate blood within a month or so before getting an HbA1c test, am I > going to produce erroroneus results?

"Absolutely yes. The HBA1c goes down after new blood production is increased, either in response to blood loss or due to the increased blood volume requirement of pregnancy. The best example of this is in a May 1983 Diabetes Care article. The 450cc volume is typical of a blood donation. Here is the abstract: ‘Nondiabetic adult subjects (N = 12) were studied to determine the effect of an approximately 450-ml acute blood loss upon glycosylated hemoglobin measurements. After blood loss, the hematocrit significantly decreased by week 1 (P less than 0.001) and the reticulocyte count peaked by week 2. All glycosylated hemoglobins measured showed significant decreases post blood loss. The nadir was at week 4 for total A1, A1c, and irreversible A1c by high-pressure liquid chromatography (HPLC), and at week 6 for irreversible A1 by HPLC and A1 by electrophoresis. The mean percent decrease in glycosylated hemoglobins ranged from 4.6% (irreversible A1 by HPLC) to 8.6% (total A1c by HPLC).’ I would still encourage you to donate blood.  Let your doctor know what you are doing so he can factor in the expected drop in your HbA1c. William C Biggs MD" http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=tbst0fe84a… Frank

Response:

Preston: > Instead of expensively and directly measuring the Apolipids, IDL, chylomicrons, etc., etc. (the "bad" goo) the new yardstick for metabolic syndrome patients w/elevated TG 300 is to simply compute the non-HDL in mg/dl.  Mine comes in at 152-42=110 which is under the <130 treatment threshold.  I look just fine there.  However, on another level the treatment standard is if non-HDL is >30mg/dl over LDL.  In that case I fall miserably short (40+30=70).  Which should be MY standard non-HDL benchmark?  At any rate, it looks more and more like I’ll be adding fenofibrate to my atorvastatin regimen.  Remember, I’m already on Metformin 2g/day and the Lipitor (also lisenopril w/HCT).

I’ll refer you to a 1997 Circulation journal article and some of the references used for the article as well as articles that subsequently referred to this article. I will not attempt to post many exerpts. Often the articles that cite an article lead to later research findings. Some exerpts: from the Results section: "Based on prior reports that the interrelationship of triglyceride-rich apoprotein C-III

Question:

I’m kinda a lucky guy, I eat the same thing all the time and I really don’t mind. This is good if you’re trying to get one’s BG under control. When I was dxed 6-12-03 my wt. was 264. It’s now down to 233 and I’m shooting for 200 by March-ish. Everytime I put 10 lbs behind me I have a corresponding drop in BG. Now here comes what I consider interesting. Almost every morning my FBG is between 92-102. I have coffee, and something to wash down my Glucophage. I then have either sliced strawberries with SF Jell-O and spray whipped topping, or two chocolate rice cakes with PB, usually 60-90 minutes later. When I was in between 264 lbs. and 244 lbs. my 1 hr. for strawberries would be 130-140, and for choc rice cake-PB would be around the same. When my wt. dropped below 240 lbs. I started to notice a strange flux in my BG. My 1 hr. for strawberries was 105-120,  BUT the 1 hr for choc rice cake-PB was the same! I’ve tried various combinations and I’ve discovered that any fresh fruit spike is way lower and shorter than anything that includes any kind of carb-starch. Now I can understand everything spiking less due to D&E, but just fruit? — t2_lurking geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m kinda a lucky guy, I eat the same thing all the time and I really don’t > mind. This is good if you’re trying to get one’s BG under control. > When I was dxed 6-12-03 my wt. was 264. It’s now down to 233 and I’m > shooting for 200 by March-ish. Everytime I put 10 lbs behind me I have a > corresponding drop in BG. > Now here comes what I consider interesting. Almost every morning my FBG is > between 92-102. I have coffee, and something to wash down my Glucophage. I > then have either sliced strawberries with SF Jell-O and spray whipped > topping, or two chocolate rice cakes with PB, usually 60-90 minutes later. > When I was in between 264 lbs. and 244 lbs. my 1 hr. for strawberries would > be 130-140, and for choc rice cake-PB would be around the same. When my wt. > dropped below 240 lbs. I started to notice a strange flux in my BG. My 1 hr. > for strawberries was 105-120,  BUT the 1 hr for choc rice cake-PB was the > same! > I’ve tried various combinations and I’ve discovered that any fresh fruit > spike is way lower and shorter than anything that includes any kind of > carb-starch. > Now I can understand everything spiking less due to D&E, but just fruit? > — > t2_lurking > geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom > Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete)

Two different factors may be involved. 1. Fructose,  one of the main sugars found in fruit,  does not always register on a meter as does glucose.  It still does damage, perhaps even more than glucose.  See; http://www.thenutritionreporter.com/fructose_dangers.html "a trail of medical studies dating back a quarter of a century doesn’t paint a terribly sweet picture for fructose. High fructose consumption has been fingered as a causative factor in heart disease. It raises blood levels of cholesterol and another type of fat, triglyceride. It makes blood cells more prone to clotting, and it may also accelerate the aging process. "People should avoid it," urged John Yudkin, M.D., Ph.D., professor emeritus at Queen Elizabeth College, London, and an expert in the health effects of sugar." 2. Your fruit of choice is strawberries, which are very low in carbs, as are most berries.  You will probably not get as good a reading if another kind of fruit with a much higher sugar content was being consumed. It’s all about carbs.  Not fruit  generally.  Rice in any form is still a fast, dense carb. The rice cakes are fast, dense carb, and so will raise your bg.  The strawberries are low carb, and you have them with cream, which isn’t a carb at all.  So only a slight rise in bg. With weight loss, your insulin resistance has dropped, and hence the lower reading, you handle the initial food better. You have PB with the rice cakes, so that slows the digestion and absorbtion of the carbs.  There are some carbs in peanuts too. What reading do you get at 2hrs?   Is it higher or lower? Time to expand your scientific experiments.  Maybe you do handle the rice better than before as well.  It’s hard to know, without more testing at the 2hr mark. Annette — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

No this isn’t OT (off topic). It’s very much ON TOPIC – the control of blood sugar levels with diet. And weight loss. Annette — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Annette: Thanks for the link. I went back to my little T2 library and found some of the same references. I missed fructose-fruit connection entirely. By my 2 hr. readings everything has pretty much evened out, between 93-105. I made sure to check some 90 min readings as well and the choc rice cake-PB was dropping consistent with the 2 hr. reading. By 150 minutes I was totally back +/- meter variables. btw: I tried a half-bagel and next day one slice of store bought potato bread with PB instead of a rice cake, Whoo-Boy, Forget that stuff! Spike City! Rice cakes (Thank God) in my system seem to fit quite well. Thanks again for the response.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m kinda a lucky guy, I eat the same thing all the time and I > really don’t > mind. This is good if you’re trying to get one’s BG under control. > When I was dxed 6-12-03 my wt. was 264. It’s now down to 233 and > I’m > shooting for 200 by March-ish. Everytime I put 10 lbs behind me I > have a > corresponding drop in BG. > Now here comes what I consider interesting. Almost every morning > my FBG is > between 92-102. I have coffee, and something to wash down my > Glucophage. I > then have either sliced strawberries with SF Jell-O and spray > whipped > topping, or two chocolate rice cakes with PB, usually 60-90 > minutes later. > When I was in between 264 lbs. and 244 lbs. my 1 hr. for > strawberries would > be 130-140, and for choc rice cake-PB would be around the same. > When my wt. > dropped below 240 lbs. I started to notice a strange flux in my > BG. My 1 hr. > for strawberries was 105-120,  BUT the 1 hr for choc rice cake-PB > was the > same! > I’ve tried various combinations and I’ve discovered that any fresh > fruit > spike is way lower and shorter than anything that includes any > kind of > carb-starch. > Now I can understand everything spiking less due to D&E, but just > fruit? > — > t2_lurking > geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom > Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete) > Two different factors may be involved. > 1. Fructose,  one of the main sugars found in fruit,  does not > always register on a meter as does glucose.  It still does damage, > perhaps even more than glucose.  See; > http://www.thenutritionreporter.com/fructose_dangers.html > "a trail of medical studies dating back a quarter of a century > doesn’t paint a terribly sweet picture for fructose. High fructose > consumption has been fingered as a causative factor in heart > disease. It raises blood levels of cholesterol and another type of > fat, triglyceride. It makes blood cells more prone to clotting, and > it may also accelerate the aging process. > "People should avoid it," urged John Yudkin, M.D., Ph.D., professor > emeritus at Queen Elizabeth College, London, and an expert in the > health effects of sugar." > 2. Your fruit of choice is strawberries, which are very low in > carbs, as are most berries.  You will probably not get as good a > reading if another kind of fruit with a much higher sugar content > was being consumed. > It’s all about carbs.  Not fruit  generally.  Rice in any form is > still a fast, dense carb. > The rice cakes are fast, dense carb, and so will raise your bg.  The > strawberries are low carb, and you have them with cream, which isn’t > a carb at all.  So only a slight rise in bg. With weight loss, your > insulin resistance has dropped, and hence the lower reading, you > handle the initial food better. You have PB with the rice cakes, so > that slows the digestion and absorbtion of the carbs.  There are > some carbs in peanuts too. What reading do you get at 2hrs?   Is it > higher or lower? > Time to expand your scientific experiments.  Maybe you do handle the > rice better than before as well.  It’s hard to know, without more > testing at the 2hr mark. > Annette > — > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

This study smacks of the idiocy of the Aspartame debate…sure when test subjects are fed enough to kill an elephant there are adverse affects ! A few strawberries isn’t going to affect many. You weight loss is likely reducing insulin resistance common among heavier people. As the weight comes off the resistance problem improves. Some people who get to a healthy weight see a complete remission of sorts.

Response:

> This study smacks of the idiocy of the Aspartame debate…sure when > test subjects are fed enough to kill an elephant there are adverse > affects ! A few strawberries isn’t going to affect many. You weight > loss is likely reducing insulin resistance common among heavier > people. As the weight comes off the resistance problem improves. Some > people who get to a healthy weight see a complete remission of sorts.

Is that true?  I asked my doctor if that was possible and she said, not really.  Do you have cites?  websites?  more info? Thanks, Chakolate

Response:

> > This study smacks of the idiocy of the Aspartame debate…sure when > test subjects are fed enough to kill an elephant there are adverse > affects ! A few strawberries isn’t going to affect many. You weight > loss is likely reducing insulin resistance common among heavier > people. As the weight comes off the resistance problem improves. Some > people who get to a healthy weight see a complete remission of sorts. > Is that true?  I asked my doctor if that was possible and she said, not > really.  Do you have cites?  websites?  more info?

Is what true ? The part about remission ? This only applies to T2 and would likely only occur with someone Dx early. It is only an apparent remission…one who is obese and on meds…etc could do away with the meds and be very loose wth their diet with a good deal of weight loss. But remember, DM is a progressive disease and one must be vigilant. Also, put the weight back on and bang…you’ll lose the ability to easily control your BG. Some diabetics are very high on the insulin resistance end of things which is linked mainly to obesity…lose the weight and the fat and the insulin resistance all but goes away. Keep it off and it could be a very long time before DM plays an active roll in one’s health.

Response:

> Is what true ? The part about remission ? This only applies to T2 and > would likely only occur with someone Dx early. It is only an apparent > remission…one who is obese and on meds…etc could do away with the > meds and be very loose wth their diet with a good deal of weight loss. > But remember, DM is a progressive disease and one must be vigilant. > Also, put the weight back on and bang…you’ll lose the ability to > easily control your BG. Some diabetics are very high on the insulin > resistance end of things which is linked mainly to obesity…lose the > weight and the fat and the insulin resistance all but goes away. Keep > it off and it could be a very long time before DM plays an active roll > in one’s health.

Ah, that was very clear.  Thanks. Chakolate — Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter, and those who matter don’t mind.   –Dr. Seuss

Response:

> This study smacks of the idiocy of the Aspartame debate…sure when > test subjects are fed enough to kill an elephant there are adverse > affects ! A few strawberries isn’t going to affect many. You weight > loss is likely reducing insulin resistance common among heavier > people. As the weight comes off the resistance problem improves. Some > people who get to a healthy weight see a complete remission of

sorts. I have no idea what comment of mine or study is being referred to in this post. Could you please indicate what your post is  replying to/commenting on ? Annette — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

> I have no idea what comment of mine or study is being referred to in > this post. > Could you please indicate what your post is  replying to/commenting > on ?

It was the s3cond post in this thread….your post included some conclusions from some studies…

Response:

> I have no idea what comment of mine or study is being referred to in > this post. > Could you please indicate what your post is  replying to/commenting > on ? > It was the s3cond post in this thread….your post included some > conclusions from some studies…

Thank you – I did go back and found the relevant post. Now I can reply.

> This study smacks of the idiocy of the Aspartame debate…

It does?  As I read it, the main thrust of the article is mostly about high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS), and the use of fructose generally in large quantities in processed foods.  And it wasn’t a study per se, it was an article that referred to quite a lot of studies, carried out by reputable researchers. >sure when > test subjects are fed enough to kill an elephant there are adverse > affects !

And that was the whole point of the article. It points out that we *are* unknowingly consuming far too much fructose in our daily diet. Did you notice where it said in the article; "All this should not dampen your taste for fresh fruit or fruit juice. The hazards associated with fructose appear to be dose dependent, according to Yudkin and other experts. If you eat predominantly natural foods, and avoid large quantities of processed foods, you have little to worry about. Fructose accounts for only 5 to 7.7 percent of the wet weight of cherries,pears, bananas, grapes, and apples. That’s about 5.5 to 8 teaspoons per pound of fresh fruit. There’s even less fructose – 2 to 3 percent, or roughly 2 to 3 teaspoons per pound – in strawberries, blackberries, blueberries, oranges, and grapefruit. " Of course if one has diabetes, a lot of the fruit mentioned above is going to affect the blood glucose levels because of their high sucrose or starch content.  eg, oranges *may* be low in fructose content, but most in this group would agree that a glass of orange juice is not a good idea when you are endeavouring to avoid a spike. As for bananas and grapes, most diabetics limit or avoid them. Actually, my point originally was in reply to "t2"’s referral to "any fresh fruit".  I was trying to say that it was UNLIKELY that the strawberries had any impact on bg levels, but that other fruit might, and consumption of a LOT of fructose may not spike, but could have a negative effect on overall health.   He read the article, and seemed to understand. >A few strawberries isn’t going to affect many.

Exactly. That’s what *I* said! >You weight > loss is likely reducing insulin resistance common among heavier > people. As the weight comes off the resistance problem improves. Some > people who get to a healthy weight see a complete remission of

sorts. And now we are back to the chicken and egg argument. Do T2’s gain weight because of insulin resistance, or does insulin resistance cause weight gain? I am not interested in getting back into *that* one.  I have my own opinion, based on my personal experience, but as is often said, YMMV. Annette — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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This post not CC’d by email >2. Your fruit of choice is strawberries, which are very low in >carbs, as are most berries.

G’day G’day Annette,   The crucial feature. Best wishes, — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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This post not CC’d by email – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Two different factors may be involved. >1. Fructose,  one of the main sugars found in fruit,  does not >always register on a meter as does glucose.  It still does damage, >perhaps even more than glucose.  See; >http://www.thenutritionreporter.com/fructose_dangers.html >"a trail of medical studies dating back a quarter of a century >doesn’t paint a terribly sweet picture for fructose. High fructose >consumption has been fingered as a causative factor in heart >disease. It raises blood levels of cholesterol and another type of >fat, triglyceride. It makes blood cells more prone to clotting, and >it may also accelerate the aging process. >"People should avoid it," urged John Yudkin, M.D., Ph.D., professor >emeritus at Queen Elizabeth College, London, and an expert in the >health effects of sugar."

G’day G’day Annette,   Fructose is sometimes called fruit sugar but that is about where the association ends.  The sugars in fruit are usually very unglamorous, sucrose as in table sugar or a mixture of fructose and glucose in equal proportions. What this means is the carbs in fruit are similar to that found in homemade cordials made with common table sugar. Some of the sugar hydrolyses into fructose and glucose. (Commercial soft drinks use high fructose corn syrup which has a higher proportion of fructose than hydrolysed cane sugar.)   A big difference is not in the composition of the sugar but the quantities.  A small can of soft drink has the equivalent of eleven teaspoons of sugar (Headlines in a local paper).  No one I know would dream of having that amount of sugar in tea or coffee.  In a bowl of strawberries we are talking a couple of teaspoons.  Berries offer the best antioxidant to carb ratio of any common food item. There are exceptions.  Apples and pears have a higher proportion of fructose. At one time I looked at the possibility of using apple juice for diabetics.  The fructose problem then emerges.  The fructose is deceptive in that it damages proteins by glycates proteins about at well as glucose but give a low blood glucose test.  The sense of security one gains from low blood glucose tests is false in this instance. Best wishes, — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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This post not CC’d by email >btw: I tried a half-bagel and next day one slice of store bought potato >bread with PB instead of a rice cake, Whoo-Boy, Forget that stuff! Spike >City!

G’day G’day,  Good on ya.  It is all a matter of learning and the learning that matters here is the learning that we actually use to improve our health. The foods that are giving you problems are starchy foods. The fundamental issue for diabetics is that starches often rapidly break down into glucose. The rate at which they break down depends a bit on whether the starch chains are highly branched ie amylopectin or not so highly branched, amylose.  From time to time people talk about different varieties of rice and the affects they have on their blood glucose.  The Indian basmati rice and the Australian doongara rice varieties are high amylose strains and this gives them a lower glycemic index. Other varieties have a higher amylopectin. Bananas as they ripen convert amylose to amylopectin amongst other things. With amylopectin type starches the rule is frighteningly simple. By the time the food arrives at the small intestine where glucose can be absorbed, hey presto, that stuff that started out as starch is glucose.  One might as well have spooned it out of a packet.   It was a neat trick of evolution that our saliva contains salivary amylase the enzyme that starts slicing and dicing the starch chains even before they reach the stomach.   Bread made from highly processed flour -> glucose. Potato                                 -> glucose. Some well meaning people promote a lower glycemic index diet. Unfortunately they often tend to suffer from selective attention. Sure if one chooses a low glycemic index diet with items like pearl barley, rolled oats etc the there are health benefits associated with things like beta glucans.  Notice an important factor is the intact grain aspect of pearl barley or rolled oats.   Unfortunately in the real world, a lower GI diet is determined by one single factor.  When they look at GI in wild ie in epidemiology studies they find the single determining factor is table sugar.  On the glucose = 100 scale, table sugar is about 70. The starches that people actually eat tend to be close to 100. People just don’t eat enough quality low glycemic foods of their own volition to produce low GI diets.  To understand why sugar plays such a dominant part consider these North American average consumption figures                  Contribution                  to carb intake. Simple sugars          40% Grains mostly refined  38% Fruit                   7% Dairy                   6% Potatoes                5% Vegetables              4% Legumes and nuts        2% Hope this helps. Best wishes, — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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Quentin, thanks for an other informative post! — t2_lurking geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This post not CC’d by email >btw: I tried a half-bagel and next day one slice of store bought potato >bread with PB instead of a rice cake, Whoo-Boy, Forget that stuff! Spike >City! > G’day G’day, >  Good on ya.  It is all a matter of learning and the learning that > matters here is the learning that we actually use to improve our > health. > The foods that are giving you problems are starchy foods. The > fundamental issue for diabetics is that starches often rapidly break > down into glucose. The rate at which they break down depends a bit on > whether the starch chains are highly branched ie amylopectin or not so > highly branched, amylose.  From time to time people talk about > different varieties of rice and the affects they have on their blood > glucose.  The Indian basmati rice and the Australian doongara rice > varieties are high amylose strains and this gives them a lower > glycemic index. Other varieties have a higher amylopectin. Bananas as > they ripen convert amylose to amylopectin amongst other things. With > amylopectin type starches the rule is frighteningly simple. By the > time the food arrives at the small intestine where glucose can be > absorbed, hey presto, that stuff that started out as starch is > glucose.  One might as well have spooned it out of a packet. > It was a neat trick of evolution that our saliva contains salivary > amylase the enzyme that starts slicing and dicing the starch chains > even before they reach the stomach. > Bread made from highly processed flour -> glucose. > Potato                                 -> glucose. > Some well meaning people promote a lower glycemic index diet. > Unfortunately they often tend to suffer from selective attention. > Sure if one chooses a low glycemic index diet with items like pearl > barley, rolled oats etc the there are health benefits associated with > things like beta glucans.  Notice an important factor is the intact > grain aspect of pearl barley or rolled oats. > Unfortunately in the real world, a lower GI diet is determined by one > single factor.  When they look at GI in wild ie in epidemiology > studies they find the single determining factor is table sugar.  On > the glucose = 100 scale, table sugar is about 70. > The starches that people actually eat tend to be close to 100. People > just don’t eat enough quality low glycemic foods of their own volition > to produce low GI diets.  To understand why sugar plays such a > dominant part consider these North American average consumption > figures >                  Contribution >                  to carb intake. > Simple sugars          40% > Grains mostly refined  38% > Fruit                   7% > Dairy                   6% > Potatoes                5% > Vegetables              4% > Legumes and nuts        2% > Hope this helps. > Best wishes, > — > Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / > New Zealand,       >#,#< [ >                     / / > "… and the blind dog was leading." > http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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Thanks for explaining it all Quentin.  You do it so well. I really appreciate that, I’m not very good at the scientific explanations, but I sure get the overall message. As for the strawberries, I doubt if I’ve ever eaten a whole bowl full ( how much is that , BTW? -smile). All I know is from what you and others have taught me, and my own experience.  Berries are now firmly included in my diet. To quote something you once said about someone else " If you didn’t exist, we would have to invent you"! Annette

> This post not CC’d by email

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Two different factors may be involved. >1. Fructose,  one of the main sugars found in fruit,  does not >always register on a meter as does glucose.  It still does damage, >perhaps even more than glucose.  See; >http://www.thenutritionreporter.com/fructose_dangers.html >"a trail of medical studies dating back a quarter of a century >doesn’t paint a terribly sweet picture for fructose. High fructose >consumption has been fingered as a causative factor in heart >disease. It raises blood levels of cholesterol and another type of >fat, triglyceride. It makes blood cells more prone to clotting, and >it may also accelerate the aging process. >"People should avoid it," urged John Yudkin, M.D., Ph.D., professor >emeritus at Queen Elizabeth College, London, and an expert in the >health effects of sugar." > G’day G’day Annette, >   Fructose is sometimes called fruit sugar but that is about where the > association ends.  The sugars in fruit are usually very unglamorous, > sucrose as in table sugar or a mixture of fructose and glucose in > equal proportions. What this means is the carbs in fruit are similar > to that found in homemade cordials made with common table sugar. > Some of the sugar hydrolyses into fructose and glucose. (Commercial > soft drinks use high fructose corn syrup which has a higher proportion > of fructose than hydrolysed cane sugar.) > A big difference is not in the composition of the sugar but the > quantities.  A small can of soft drink has the equivalent of eleven > teaspoons of sugar (Headlines in a local paper).  No one I know would > dream of having that amount of sugar in tea or coffee.  In a bowl of > strawberries we are talking a couple of teaspoons.  Berries offer the > best antioxidant to carb ratio of any common food item. > There are exceptions.  Apples and pears have a higher proportion of > fructose. At one time I looked at the possibility of using apple juice > for diabetics.  The fructose problem then emerges.  The fructose is > deceptive in that it damages proteins by glycates proteins about at > well as glucose but give a low blood glucose test.  The sense of > security one gains from low blood glucose tests is false in this > instance. > Best wishes, > — > Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / > New Zealand,       >#,#< [ >                     / / > "… and the blind dog was leading." > http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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This post not CC’d by email >Thanks for explaining it all Quentin.  You do it so well. I really >appreciate that, I’m not very good at the scientific explanations, >but I sure get the overall message.

G’day G’day Annette,   Relative goodness isn’t important.  What’s important is we are relating.  Discussing topics that relate to diabetes.  Simple obvious stuff that is crucial to the future health of the people who come here looking for information that shows them there is a way to live a better life, a life with better health prospects than the one they had been living. >As for the strawberries, I doubt if I’ve ever eaten a whole bowl >full ( how much is that , BTW? -smile).

OK, I eat a bowl of berries almost every morning.  Since it is early Spring here that means frozen blueberries, loganberries, boysenberries, blackberries, raspberries brought from the wholesalers and growers. >All I know is from what you and others have taught me, and my own >experience.  Berries are now firmly included in my diet. >To quote something you once said about someone else " If you didn’t >exist, we would have to invent you"!

Some morning when I wake up, I’m a little unsure of my own existence. It’s a new brave world for me going from contract to contract, examination prescription writing, emotional health make overs of managers …   So each day reinventing myself comes naturally. <grin> >Annette

Best wishes and thanks. — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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Question:

: > : > I did read the subject.  It asked if all T2s end up on insulin.  The : > answer is, we don’t know. : OK, but a better answer based on current medical thinking is that if you : live long enough, you’ll eventually be taking insulin daily. : What’s long enough? Again, they’re thinking almost anything past 60. I’m : only 5 years away from that, so I’ll let you know what happens when I get : there. Given the fact that the risk for death among people with diabetes is : about 2 times that of people without diabetes, I’ll consider anything beyond : 60 as a gift. : But, you’re right. We don’t know empirically as there haven’t been enough of : us who have had access to new meds and new diets for long enough that : _might_ prevent many of the ailments that so many succumbed to in the past. : Happy? : James Well, as a 67 tear old, first diagnosed at 50, lot 70lbs, then kind of ignored it for bout 10 years and noe in good control, with A1c’s in the e5.5 range over tht past few years, I am still here, without insulin and intend to be around for quite a while longer.  I have lots to do in this life and don’t intend to leave it early, so I watch my lipidsJ and BP as well as my bg’s and walk lots. We all should just kep on trukkin. Wendy

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>> Given the fact that the risk for death among people with diabetes is > about 2 times that of people without diabetes, > Huh?

http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/statistics/index.htm#12

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with >>> decent control? >> yes, most t2’s (i.e. > 51%) wind up on insulin > That’s not what was asked. > Yes, it was Prisc. How much interpretation can there be in such a simple > question? > My MD and endo have both told me that even though I am able to manage good > control with just D&E, as I get older I will eventually have to resort to > _some_ sort of Rx to assist my control and will ultimately have to augment > my meds with some insulin. > Regards, > James the Elder

James…..even in good control for years and 5 to10 miles jogging every order day I ended up taking the needle.   My  weight is reasonable and I’m in great shape. Most end up on the needle sooner or later sez my Endo. I should of been taking Lantus years ago….I feel great and look forward to the shot at night. — Waro, 9 pills a day with 20UI of Lantus

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> I did read the subject.  It asked if all T2s end up on insulin.  The > answer is, we don’t know.

OK, but a better answer based on current medical thinking is that if you live long enough, you’ll eventually be taking insulin daily. What’s long enough? Again, they’re thinking almost anything past 60. I’m only 5 years away from that, so I’ll let you know what happens when I get there. Given the fact that the risk for death among people with diabetes is about 2 times that of people without diabetes, I’ll consider anything beyond 60 as a gift. But, you’re right. We don’t know empirically as there haven’t been enough of us who have had access to new meds and new diets for long enough that _might_ prevent many of the ailments that so many succumbed to in the past. Happy? > And my name is Priscilla, not Prisc.

Are you the Queen of the Desert? Regards, James

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> James…..even in good control for years and 5 to10 miles jogging > every order day I ended up taking the needle.   My  weight is > reasonable and I’m in great shape. Most end up on the needle sooner > or later sez my Endo.

Age? Just curious. My endo goes to extreme lengths to pat me on the head for maintaining my BGs to date with diet and exercise alone. But at the same time he paints a dark view of the future that holds daily injections. But, of course, we don’t know what the future will bring in the way of additional meds or other actions that might forestall the syringe indefinitely. > I should of been taking Lantus years ago….I feel great and look > forward to the shot at night.

I look and feel pretty damn good as well, but with all of my other health problems I am _not_ looking forward to becoming insulin dependent. Regards, James the Elder

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I’m over 65 and I take 40 units of Lantus every nite – along with oral meds and low carb regimen, etc., provides excellent steady control. It’s no big deal – most people are apprehensive about insulin, but I don’t see any reason for not just accepting it as part of the treatment regimen you expect when you have a progressive disease…. Those who use insulin, like the poster below, myself and others aren’t "unhappy" with the results……the doctors I work with don’t see anything "dark" or "sinister" about it….! PC

| > | > James…..even in good control for years and 5 to10 miles jogging | > every order day I ended up taking the needle.   My  weight is | > reasonable and I’m in great shape. Most end up on the needle sooner | > or later sez my Endo. | | Age? Just curious. My endo goes to extreme lengths to pat me on the head for | maintaining my BGs to date with diet and exercise alone. But at the same | time he paints a dark view of the future that holds daily injections. But, | of course, we don’t know what the future will bring in the way of additional | meds or other actions that might forestall the syringe indefinitely. | | > I should of been taking Lantus years ago….I feel great and look | > forward to the shot at night. | | I look and feel pretty damn good as well, but with all of my other health | problems I am _not_ looking forward to becoming insulin dependent. | | Regards, | | James the Elder | |

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>> Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with >>>> decent control? >>> yes, most t2’s (i.e. > 51%) wind up on insulin >> That’s not what was asked. > Yes, it was Prisc. How much interpretation can there be in such a > simple question? > No, it wasn’t.  See the original question above.

See the SUBJECT Prisc! > That question if > every diabetic would need insulin.  The response was that the > majority of diabetics would need insulin.  Very different thing.

Are the nits in bloom? You’re picking a lot of them. To answer the question again, it would have to be No, not ALL T2’s wind up on insulin, some DIE before the need to inject arises. But, if you live long enough, contemporary medical wisdom says that you will eventually need to inject _some_ insulin _some_ day. > My MD and endo have both told me that even though I am able to > manage good control with just D&E, as I get older I will eventually > have to resort to _some_ sort of Rx to assist my control and will > ultimately have to augment my meds with some insulin. > We just don’t know, because maintaining good tight control is such a > new phenomenon.

Agreed. Regards, James the Elder

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> > Given the fact that the risk for death among people with diabetes is >about 2 times that of people without diabetes, > Huh?

Yeah, but would one really want to be in the group that totally avoided all risk of death?  Could get boring after a few millenia.   Priscilla — The Episcopal Church welcomes you… and you… and you….

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(snipped) > What’s long enough? Again, they’re thinking almost anything past 60. I’m only 5 years away from that, so I’ll let you know what happens when I get there. Given the fact that the risk for death among people with diabetes is about 2 times that of people without diabetes, I’ll consider anything beyond 60 as a gift. > But, you’re right. We don’t know empirically as there haven’t been enough of us who have had access to new meds and new diets for long enough that _might_ prevent many of the ailments that so many succumbed to in the past.

Hey, I wasn’t dx’d until I was 65. Must be borrowed time. Frank

Response:

>James…..even in good control for years and 5 to10 miles jogging every >order day I ended up taking the needle.   My  weight is reasonable and I’m >in great shape. Most end up on the needle sooner or later sez my Endo. >I should of been taking Lantus years ago….I feel great and look forward to >the shot at night.

How old were you when you were diagnosed? How old were you when you had to start insulin?   How did your doctor decide it was time? thank you

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If you manage your life intelligently and observe common sense requirements, I think a T2 can live as long as anyone can. The "averages" published are affected by the significant number of diabetics who DON’T take proper care of themselves….. You start using insulin when you need to use insulin – depends on how the disease is progressing and how well you can control BS with diet, exercise and oral meds…. PC

| I wonder what the average life expectancy is for a T2 | and | at what point do they typically decide to start insulin? | | |

| | > | >> Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with | >> decent control? | >> Thanks | > | >yes, most t2’s (i.e. > 51%) wind up on insulin | > | >but it only happens near the end of their lives | >(i.e. the life of an "average" t2) | > | >bill t1 since ‘57 |

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Thanks to all of you.  This is a great discussion for me.

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I wonder what the average life expectancy is for a T2 and at what point do they typically decide to start insulin? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with > decent control? > Thanks >yes, most t2’s (i.e. > 51%) wind up on insulin >but it only happens near the end of their lives >(i.e. the life of an "average" t2) >bill t1 since ‘57

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 Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with  decent control? In my opinion, for what it is worth, the answer can vary. Both my husband and myself are Type 2 diabetics. My husband is under control most of the time with diet and exercise. When his numbers start to climb he goes on to 500 mg of Glucophage and he is quickly back under control. Myself? I have tried many different oral medications such as Glucophage, Glucotrol, Actos. I finally got to a point where diet and exercise and these medicines were not nearly enough to get me under control. I went on Humulin N in April of 2002. I, at the time that I started taking it, was taking 80 units 2x a day. That is how out of control I was. I got a grip on my weight and exercise in September, 2002. I had weight loss surgery and I have since lost 107 pounds. Losing the excess weight and eating a higher protein/lower carb diet has helped me to get from that 80 units 2x a day to where I am today. I am only taking 5 units of Humulin N at bed time. No other insulin. Am I thrilled? YES. Am I always working to make sure that my numbers stay in control so I don’t have to increase my insulin? YES. Am I scared that I can wind back up on a high dose of insulin? YES. But I am willing to do anything and everything that I can to get my numbers to stay under control. I am only 39 and want a long life with my husband and want to have children. It is inherent that I make the most of the opportunity to take charge of my health. Sorry for the long winded answer! Becca

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>> Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with >>>>> decent control? >>>> yes, most t2’s (i.e. > 51%) wind up on insulin >>> That’s not what was asked. >> Yes, it was Prisc. How much interpretation can there be in such a >> simple question? > No, it wasn’t.  See the original question above. > See the SUBJECT Prisc!

I did read the subject.  It asked if all T2s end up on insulin.  The answer is, we don’t know. And my name is Priscilla, not Prisc. Priscilla — The Episcopal Church welcomes you… and you… and you….

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with >>> decent control? >> yes, most t2’s (i.e. > 51%) wind up on insulin > That’s not what was asked. > Yes, it was Prisc. How much interpretation can there be in such a simple > question?

No, it wasn’t.  See the original question above.  That question if every diabetic would need insulin.  The response was that the majority of diabetics would need insulin.  Very different thing. > My MD and endo have both told me that even though I am able to manage good > control with just D&E, as I get older I will eventually have to resort to > _some_ sort of Rx to assist my control and will ultimately have to augment > my meds with some insulin.

We just don’t know, because maintaining good tight control is such a new phenomenon. Priscilla — The Episcopal Church welcomes you… and you… and you….

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> Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with > decent control? > Thanks

yes, most t2’s (i.e. > 51%) wind up on insulin but it only happens near the end of their lives (i.e. the life of an "average" t2) bill t1 since ‘57

Response:

> > Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with > decent control? > Thanks > yes, most t2’s (i.e. > 51%) wind up on insulin

That’s not what was asked. Priscilla — The Episcopal Church welcomes you… and you… and you….

Response:

>>> Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with >> decent control? > yes, most t2’s (i.e. > 51%) wind up on insulin > That’s not what was asked.

Yes, it was Prisc. How much interpretation can there be in such a simple question? My MD and endo have both told me that even though I am able to manage good control with just D&E, as I get older I will eventually have to resort to _some_ sort of Rx to assist my control and will ultimately have to augment my meds with some insulin. Regards, James the Elder

Response:

> Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with > decent control?

No-one can predict the future with 100% accuracy.  Keeping one’s numbers tightly within normal range is a fairly recent phenomenon, so we don’t know what effect eating low-carb to keep the numbers down and keep the beta cells from being stressed will do in the long run. Priscilla — The Episcopal Church welcomes you… and you… and you….

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> Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with > decent control? > Thanks

Levi…it’s a battle. Go for years taking meds then on and off the pills for several years then wacko.  9 pills a day and 20UI of Lantus…..it’s hell getting old. — Waro, The diabetic druggy.

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NO Loretta Eisenberg — In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.

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> Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with > decent control? > Thanks

        No.  Not everyone ends up on insulin.   No one actually knows yet why beta cells are dying in T2, but it’s believed by many that high bgs kill them off faster.  So if you maintain good control instead, then there’s a good chance your beta cell will reach your old age with you.  I’m 9 years down the path and still on diet and exercise.         On the other hand, while most people have needlephobia,  our insulin users tell us that injections are nearly painless.  Our routine daily testing is more painful.   I’ve borrowed a couple empty syringes from my brother and tried an experimental jab or two.  I have to admit it felt a little weird to have it in me, but it was basically painless.         It is also theorized in some quarters that injecting insulin relieves stress on the pancreas and will allow it to last longer.  There is a school of thought that says all new diabetics should be started on insulin as a first resort rather than as a last resort to gain faster control and, again, preserve the pancreas.                         E

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> Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with > decent control?

No. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

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Is it always a matter of time before we need the needle, even with decent control? Thanks

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I have been through a lot of cycles of fads in diets.  Almost every food has ben faulted at one time or another. I have posted doubts about Atkins and Bernstien and most of the other diets to make money.  Money makers seem to lose sight of the truth. In my book— we do not know the reasons for many things connected to diabetes.    Two bit studies really do not work  Even the best scientist are prone to misthinking.  We are all human. That is the reason I go sl;ow about accepting any theories.  In fact I was a case where few— fit at all. I have almost tons of articles and studies.  The truth may lie somewhere but not in a singe simple article.   We used to call it creative writing.   Maybe two hundred years from now we will know.  I will stick to the eating habit of a life time except for QUANTITY.  Diabetics need to eat only the amount their system will handle.   I still use "I don;t know" a lot.                                                        Guy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Guy, >Have you read this article? >http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=1726 >I would enjoy hearing your comments. >Bob > A good exercise is to start a simple rumor and wait, > Then listen to the story after it has circulated. > I am very afraid we are prone to this effect in our > diabetes information at times. > But if that story can be twisted to make money > it goes like a forest fire. > Best to be a bit conservative in acceptance > of some of the current  fads being passed around. > I think back to the many instances where health > issues reached a fury but a year or two later they > disappeared.   Then 16 years later made another > round. Then later another round. > The old saw of "measure twice and cut once" > is still  good  advice. >                                            Guy

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Guy, Have you read this article? http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=1726 I would enjoy hearing your comments. Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A good exercise is to start a simple rumor and wait, > Then listen to the story after it has circulated. > I am very afraid we are prone to this effect in our > diabetes information at times. > But if that story can be twisted to make money > it goes like a forest fire. > Best to be a bit conservative in acceptance > of some of the current  fads being passed around. > I think back to the many instances where health > issues reached a fury but a year or two later they > disappeared.   Then 16 years later made another > round. Then later another round. > The old saw of "measure twice and cut once" > is still  good  advice. >                                            Guy

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A good exercise is to start a simple rumor and wait, Then listen to the story after it has circulated. I am very afraid we are prone to this effect in our diabetes information at times. But if that story can be twisted to make money it goes like a forest fire. Best to be a bit conservative in acceptance of some of the current  fads being passed around. I think back to the many instances where health issues reached a fury but a year or two later they disappeared.   Then 16 years later made another round. Then later another round. The old saw of "measure twice and cut once" is still  good  advice.                                            Guy

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and they know who they are – you might win – this is your world not mine you can take a way the chances i have to gain diabetic friends to talk to. who knows lol steph and Dana might be so upset with some of the things you post THAT I DID SAY – you will not post what i was replying to however. when all is said and done – i have read your posts and got to know most of your pitiful lives. i would much rather be me getting insulted time after time than to be the pitiful people most of you are – the hardest part about being diabetic for me was meeting this group. and yet i can not stop posting to newbie’s to let them know they DON’T HAVE TO FOLLOW THE DIET YOU DO – THERE ARE CHOICES look at yourselves – i am better off being me than any of you. yes i would like a diabetic friend but not any of you. — http://www.diabetes.org Shadow-Spirit 39 – Male – Type – 2 Dx’d January 27, 2003 330lbs now 264 A1C = 5.1 July 15

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– http://www.diabetes.org Shadow-Spirit 39 – Male – Type – 2 Dx’d January 27, 2003 330lbs now 264 A1C = 5.1 July 15 : Your post to Ozgirl should have gotten you removed from posting but I : suspect the reason why it didn’t happen is that most people feel you : aren’t even worth the trouble. it did get me removed from posting to news groups. and several times several posts were made at me in an attempt to make me make such posts again. with of my DSL isp it cost me $1600 early cancilation fee  new modems routers New Start up fee what ever – it cost me $1600 dollars to get back to posting to newbies "that they do have a choice" between that and the constint insults makes it a more noble cause. I am proud of myself lol all tho posts like that one while made when i was extremly depressed only 7 days after dx’d or round about there and ontop of that anger to end up in the arms of people like there are here.  your hatred for the ADA still shows. THIS IS NOT ALT.LOW.CARB ITS ALT.SUPPORT.DIABETES SURRELY THE PEOPLE WHO LISTEN TO THE ADA FOR ADVICE HAVE A PLACE HERE TOO. LOL yes being around mostly woman and men that act like woman that post lol well lets just say – i hold the title of Alt.support.diabetes lol and the other diabetes groups – MOST HATED –  and after getting to know you poeple – i am not willing to be the type of person you like – i would just hate myself. : : : —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– : http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! : —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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> Your post to Ozgirl should have gotten you removed from posting but I > suspect the reason why it didn’t happen is that most people feel you > aren’t even worth the trouble.

It’s not a moderated group, so anyone can post until their behavior becomes so egregious they violate their TOS and someone drops a dime to their ISP — assuming they have an ISP who cares. Priscilla

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If you hate the people here so much why do you stay. Loretta — In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.

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Chuck, I always thought and hoped that as we get older, life gets better,  but the senior years are not golden years at all. Loretta — In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.

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Chuck to me it means he cant deal with what life has brought him and he is overcome by it,  It is all just too much and I dont blame him one bit.  Sorry Jim if I treaded on your territory.  :-) Loretta — In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.

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> Chuck, I always thought and hoped that as we get older, life gets > better,  but the senior years are not golden years at all. > Loretta > — > In tribute to the United States of America and the State > of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and > terrorism.

Ah, but they are at times – and we know enough to really appreciate them. ‘-} — Chuck -

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– http://www.diabetes.org Sushi-Boy Type – 2 — Dx’d January 27, 2003 A1C = 5.1 July 15

: "Sushi-Boy" wrote in part … : :  WOW I GUESS YOU ARE RIGHT – THIS PROVES THE ADA WAS WRONG OMG – I AM SO : ASHAMED – WHY DIDNT YOU POST THIS SOONER.  GUESS WHAT I FOLLOW THE DIET MY : DIETITIAN GAVE ME GET OVER IT. : : I would have posted it *sooner* but it came out *this* week.  Some people : call that using *current* research data. the results where still not enough to change the minds of the USFDA ( center for food saftey and applied nutrition and the ADA. maybe one day they will.. who knows – lol besides you and your friends.  I’m sorry it upset you, you did not upset me.  i guess it just shows i do not enjoy talking to you. Sushi (who : wrote in all caps) — Too bad you can’t accept what the premier medical : journal in this country has to say about the subject. they only posted results of *A* study – that is there job isnt it? but i guess the study was right – because you agree with it. be i still dont know who is right or wrong. You are not alone. : According to the article, a lot of those folks who support high carb diets : were "shocked" at the results. and some still disagree it is enough to change their minds.  Not at all what they had expected or hoped : for.  You are a good example of what happens to those in denial when faced : with the facts; lol deny they exist and keep spewing the old school rhetoric. : Instead of yelling, why don’t you try and strengthen your argument with : facts? when you have to opposing groups of scientists ( if not more ) saying different things thats pretty hard to do.. i am glad you were able to   That’s what I’ve done.  BTW, These posts aren’t so much for you — : as you have already made up your mind. i change my mind often. when i see something that makes sence to me il listen.  They are for those that read how : well you say you are doing on your carb loaded "double whopper with cheese, : double cheeseburger, super sized fries and a diet coke" diet and think they : can do that also. even if they can… does that mean they should. one thing i have always said and felt — "JUST BECAUSE YOUR METER SAYS YOU CAN EAT SOMETHING WITH OUT SPIKING…. DOESNT MAKE IT HEALTHY TO EAT"   Just ain’t so, and we both know it. : : Arnie – I CAN HONESTLY SAY I AM DONE TALKING WITH YOU. GOOD BYE AND THE CAPS ARE STILL ON BECAUSE IT WASN’T WORTH THE EFFORT TO UNCAP THEM JUST TO TALK TO YOU.

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"Sushi-Boy" wrote in part …  WOW I GUESS YOU ARE RIGHT – THIS PROVES THE ADA WAS WRONG OMG – I AM SO ASHAMED – WHY DIDNT YOU POST THIS SOONER.  GUESS WHAT I FOLLOW THE DIET MY DIETITIAN GAVE ME GET OVER IT. I would have posted it *sooner* but it came out *this* week.  Some people call that using *current* research data.  I’m sorry it upset you, Sushi (who wrote in all caps) — Too bad you can’t accept what the premier medical journal in this country has to say about the subject.  You are not alone. According to the article, a lot of those folks who support high carb diets were "shocked" at the results.  Not at all what they had expected or hoped for.  You are a good example of what happens to those in denial when faced with the facts; deny they exist and keep spewing the old school rhetoric. Instead of yelling, why don’t you try and strengthen your argument with facts?  That’s what I’ve done.  BTW, These posts aren’t so much for you — as you have already made up your mind.  They are for those that read how well you say you are doing on your carb loaded "double whopper with cheese, double cheeseburger, super sized fries and a diet coke" diet and think they can do that also.  Just ain’t so, and we both know it. Arnie –

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"Sushi-Boy" wrote in part …  just wondering if you choose to discredit the scientist that examine the ADA diet so much with favoral reviews and put down high fat and or hi protien diets.  why do you give so much credit to higher fat and or higher protein scientists? i really do not see how you can compare yourself to either scientists 99% of what you say neither scientists can not prove 100% and yet you continuely state your *oppinions* as if they are facts. I am getting a bit weary of you bashing the low-carb nutritional approach, so … I am going to make this easy for you, Sushi.  They are not MY opinions, but the established *recent*, *current*, *modern* knowledge put out by the very best in the medical research community (that would *not* be your dietitian).  The following is going to make you wince, so IGNORE it if you don’t want to actually know the TRUTH and wish to continue to live in your dream world sponsored by the ADA.  After all, I wouldn’t want to be responsible for you finding out you were WRONG and cause some kind of reaction.  You’ll notice that this is an article published THIS WEEK by the New England Journal of Medicine (You’ve probably heard of them)  They are only the *premier* medical journal in this country — "Two studies appearing in this week’s New England Journal of Medicine have offered additional evidence that the sort of low-carbohydrate diet popularized by Dr. Robert Atkins may be more effective at producing weight loss, and may produce more beneficial metabolic changes, than the low-fat and calorie restricted diets favored by most doctors and their professional organizations." "Lead investigators for both studies expressed surprise at the success of the carbohydrate-restricting diets – not so much in their achieving weight loss (which was not spectacular in either study), but instead in the metabolic and lipid improvements achieved with the low-carbohydrate diet. That a failure to restrict fat intake could result in anything other than a marked worsening in lipid levels remains amazing and barely believable to much of the medical community." "These two studies were part of the strategy that DrRich refers to as the "low-carb diet quick-kill" gambit. This is the strategy whereby a few, small, rapidly conducted studies (launched primarily to shut up the low-carb faddists) were supposed to quickly demonstrate that these diets don’t work, and that they’re dangerous. Now that results from such studies are being reported, it is plain that they are not yielding the expected results. Indeed, based on the two studies published this week, it is safe to say that the "quick-kill" strategy has now officially failed.   So: we’re at the point where the larger, more expensive, much more time-consuming studies, of the sort called for by the New England Journal editorialists, will have to be planned and funded.  Now that their opening gambit has failed – and now that the "latest" information on low-carb diets is disturbingly positive, and thus cannot be allowed to stand – denigrators of the Atkins-style diet will have little choice but to embrace these new studies." Arnie –

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: "Sushi-Boy" wrote in part … : :  just wondering if you choose to discredit the scientist that examine the : ADA diet so much with favoral reviews and put down high fat and or hi : protien diets.  why do you give so much credit to higher fat and or higher : protein scientists? i really do not see how you can compare yourself to : either scientists 99% of what you say neither scientists can not prove 100% : and yet you continuely state your *oppinions* as if they are facts. : : I am getting a bit weary of you bashing the low-carb nutritional approach, truth is you are upset that i tell people to see dietitians – i never bash the low carb diet – all i said was and it was jokingly said one time – and not to you i might add was – Adfatkins or FrankinBernstien. Do i post articles that bash low carb diets? well yes seems to be a ton out there. should i decide not to post them because you disagree and not let others decide for themselves what to think? or do you want to think for them? get wearing all you want – i dont get pleasure from talking to you anyway. I wish you would stop talking to me. : so … I am going to make this easy for you, Sushi. no make it easy for yourself They are not MY : opinions, but the established *recent*, *current*, *modern* knowledge put : out by the very best in the medical research community (that would *not* be : your dietitian). and non of which can be proven by doctors that put down those high fat and or high protein diets and those that put down low fat diets – il make this simple for you – HOW CAN BOTH GROUPS OF SCIENCTISTS BE RIGHT? O i guess the ones that in your oppinion know more. The following is going to make you wince, so IGNORE it if : you don’t want to actually know the TRUTH and wish to continue to live in : your dream world sponsored by the ADA.  After all, I wouldn’t want to be : responsible for you finding out you were WRONG lol HOW CAN I BE WRONG? I DID NOT CONDUCT STUDIES I FOLLOWED THE DIET MY DIETITIAN GAVE ME – AND AFTER READING WHAT I DID… I FEEL ITS THE SAFER DIET –  and cause some kind of : reaction.  You’ll notice that this is an article published THIS WEEK by the : New England Journal of Medicine (You’ve probably heard of them)  They are : only the *premier* medical journal in this country — : : "Two studies appearing in this week’s New England Journal of Medicine have : offered additional evidence that the sort of low-carbohydrate diet : popularized by Dr. Robert Atkins may be more effective at producing weight : loss, and may produce more beneficial metabolic changes, than the low-fat : and calorie restricted diets favored by most doctors and their professional : organizations." AND YET NOTHING HAS CHANGED I WONT EVEN BOTHER READING IT. BECAUSE I KNOW SOMEPLACE SOMEONE ELSE IS SAYING SOMETHING DIFFERENT. WHEN THE ADA OR THE USFDA ( CENTER FOR FOOD SAFTEY AND APPLIED NUTRITION ) CHANGE THEIR RECOMANDATIONS – OR MY DIETITIAN – I WILL CHANGE MINE. I PICKED MY DIET – YOU PICKED YOURS – IS THAT TOO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND? SORRY IF I DIDNT PICK THE SAME DIET AS YOU. AND BEFORE YOU SAY I BASH A LOW CARB DIET THATS GARBAGE – I JUST POST WHAT I READ. I DO NOT KNOW IT ALL LIKE I FEEL YOU THINK YOU DO. : : "Lead investigators for both studies expressed surprise at the success of : the carbohydrate-restricting diets – not so much in their achieving weight : loss (which was not spectacular in either study), but instead in the : metabolic and lipid improvements achieved with the low-carbohydrate diet. : That a failure to restrict fat intake could result in anything other than a : marked worsening in lipid levels remains amazing and barely believable to : much of the medical community." : : "These two studies were part of the strategy that DrRich refers to as the : "low-carb diet quick-kill" gambit. This is the strategy whereby a few, : small, rapidly conducted studies (launched primarily to shut up the low-carb : faddists) were supposed to quickly demonstrate that these diets don’t work, : and that they’re dangerous. Now that results from such studies are being : reported, it is plain that they are not yielding the expected results. : Indeed, based on the two studies published this week, it is safe to say that : the "quick-kill" strategy has now officially failed.   So: we’re at the : point where the larger, more expensive, much more time-consuming studies, of : the sort called for by the New England Journal editorialists, will have to : be planned and funded.  Now that their opening gambit has failed – and now : that the "latest" information on low-carb diets is disturbingly positive, : and thus cannot be allowed to stand – denigrators of the Atkins-style diet : will have little choice but to embrace these new studies." WOW I GUESS YOU ARE RIGHT – THIS PROVES THE ADA WAS WRONG OMG – I AM SO ASHAMED – WHY DIDNT YOU POST THIS SOONER. GUESS WHAT I FOLLOW THE DIET MY DIETITIAN GAVE ME GET OVER IT. : : Arnie – : : : :

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"J.C. Hartmann" wrote …  I have chosen to low carb after the ADA diet failed miserably for me.  In the 4+ years since dx, I have tweaked my version of low carbing constantly, letting my meter guide me.  FWIW, my current regimen is 10g at breakfast, 20 at lunch, and 30 at dinner. I don’t snack often. If I do, it is usually cheese, meat, etc.  I have discovered that skipping breakfast will cause my waking BG to continue to increase, due to DP, until about 11am. Eating an all protein breakfast will cause my BG to stop the increase at about 9am. Eating about 10g of CHO with my eggs and bacon/sausage/whatever, will almost stop it dead in its tracks. Often my 2hr PP will be slightly lower than my FBG. Strangely, 20g at breakfast will spike me.  Looks like you are on the right track with some experimenting. Jim and Louise, I had the same problem early on.  My BG’s would be a little high in the morning (140’s) — but settle down by 9 or 10 am.  The problem was that I really liked breakfast and still wanted to eat something then.  Even after I had mostly solved the DP problem (by eating just about 5 carbs before bed), I would still spike after I ate breakfast.  I discovered that about 15 carbs was the max for me in the morning.  Like Jim said, it just takes a bit of experimenting. Arnie –

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DP or not you still need to eat some form of carb in the morning to "break the fast" otherwise your glucose will more then likely continue to rise, till you have no reserve left in da liver  speaking only from personal experience. This is how I "solved" (I say that because it is most of the time effective) the DP issue.  I think by giving my body some carbs right before bed, I make my liver think everything is okay and there is no need to dump any sugar in my system.  The trick in my case was figuring out just how many carbs would do that without spiking me.  I also agree that having some carbs in the morning is very important.  Again, how many is the tricky part and takes some experimentation. Arnie –

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– http://www.diabetes.org Sushi-Boy Type – 2 — Dx’d January 27, 2003 A1C = 5.1 July 15

: "Sushi-Boy" wrote … : :  You just might find that the answer to these questions will depend if you : follow a high protein and or high fat diet or something like the ADA diet. : if you ask someone on the AdFatkins Diet or FrankenBernstiens diet and then : ask someone on the fantastic ADA diet or a beautiful dietitian about how : many carbs you should eat.  well i hope you already know you will get : different answers. : : It’s good to see you finally stopped saying that you don’t *endorse* any one : diet. Well it may look like i *endorse* it and in a way i think it is the safest of choices. but i would never recommend a diet to anyone – maybe i did when first dx’d but not for a few months now.  i think that is up to their doctor to decide and who is also aware of the medications the diabetic is takeing and many other things that are to many to list.   Now that you have made it clear *which* nutritional approach you : promote, and which ones you demonize — defend it with factual and *current* : peer reviewed research data. i have read enough to make up my mind and you have read enough to make up your mind.  Please show me where an approach based on 200 : plus carbs a day and approximately 60 gms carbs per main meal promoted : weight loss, first of all when i eat 200 carbs a day i would eat 4 meals of 40 carbs each. when i did do the 200 carb a day diet – * i lost 65 pounds in less then 5 months* problem is i can handle way more than 200 carbs a day. my burger king dinner tonight i think was more than 200 carbs if i am wrong im sure some one will post the nutritional data if i am right – no data will be posted. and my numbers for 2 hours and 3 hours were 130 and 125 im sure you seen the post 1 double whopper with cheese 1 double cheese burger 1 super sized fries and a diet coke. very unhealthy meal indeed. even though according to my meter i can eat this with out a problem it would surely kill me if i ate it often.  lowered cholesterol, and reduced the risks associated with : coronary disease. just wondering if you choose to discredit the scientist that examine the ADA diet so much with favoral reviews and put down high fat and or hi protien diets. why do you give so much credit to higher fat and or higher protein scientists? i really do not see how you can compare yourself to either scientists 99% of what you say neither scientists can not prove 100% and yet you continuely state your *oppinions* as if they are facts. to tell me my 200 carb a day diet is too high in carbs for me — would be wrong my numbers are always good. and to tell another perfect stranger thats too much for them – just how do you know that – and my dietitian also told me so.  :And don’t parrot the "My dietitian told me so" i do not have to parrot anything – although im sure my dietitian gave me the 200 carb a day low fat diet.   or "the : ADA says" the ADA would also agree that i have choosen the safer diet.  but not only them even the USFDA ( the center for food saftey and applied nutrtion) here is their web site. http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/list.html  I want to see current (within the last two years) peer reviewed : data.  I’ll wait here  :- )) so i guess that means you are right because i will not go looking for that. but you can find what the ADA is currently saying at their web site — http://www.diabetes.org Sushi : : Arnie – : : :

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > DP or not you still need to eat some form of carb in the morning to > "break the fast" otherwise your glucose will more then likely > continue to rise, till you have no reserve left in da liver > speaking only from personal experience. > This is how I "solved" (I say that because it is most of the time > effective) the DP issue.  I think by giving my body some carbs right > before bed, I make my liver think everything is okay and there is no > need to dump any sugar in my system.  The trick in my case was > figuring out just how many carbs would do that without spiking me.  I > also agree that having some carbs in the morning is very important. > Again, how many is the tricky part and takes some experimentation.

I’ll add an Amen to both the above statements. Without a pre-bed snack, I’ll see my FBG go as high as 140 in the morning. With my history of hepatitis, I don’t care to tax my liver any more than is absolutely necessary and have found that a 15G carb or less snack before hitting the rack let’s me wake to a FBG of 90 or less. Three or four saltine type crackers and some cheese seems to work well for me. Regards, James the Elder

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I’ve been on less than 15 g carb for breakfast for three years. Anything higher than that just spikes my BG at 2.2 mg/dl per g of carb. It took some time to get used to eat cheese with no bread but the good BG results makes the changes worth wile. My breakfast is a 800 cal of low carb food and I love it. Eggs, mushrooms, tomato, avocado, cottage cheese, blue berries, straw berries, soy milk, bacon, tofu etc. Fred Henzi

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "J.C. Hartmann" wrote … >  I have chosen to low carb after the ADA diet failed miserably for me.  In > the 4+ years since dx, I have tweaked my version of low carbing constantly, > letting my meter guide me.  FWIW, my current regimen is 10g at breakfast, 20 > at lunch, and 30 at dinner. I don’t snack often. If I do, it is usually > cheese, meat, etc.  I have discovered that skipping breakfast will cause my > waking BG to continue to increase, due to DP, until about 11am. Eating an > all protein breakfast will cause my BG to stop the increase at about 9am. > Eating about 10g of CHO with my eggs and bacon/sausage/whatever, will almost > stop it dead in its tracks. Often my 2hr PP will be slightly lower than my > FBG. Strangely, 20g at breakfast will spike me.  Looks like you are on the > right track with some experimenting.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Jim and Louise, > I had the same problem early on.  My BG’s would be a little high in the > morning (140’s) — but settle down by 9 or 10 am.  The problem was that I > really liked breakfast and still wanted to eat something then.  Even after I > had mostly solved the DP problem (by eating just about 5 carbs before bed), > I would still spike after I ate breakfast.  I discovered that about 15 carbs > was the max for me in the morning.  Like Jim said, it just takes a bit of > experimenting. > Arnie –

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"Sushi-Boy" wrote …  You just might find that the answer to these questions will depend if you follow a high protein and or high fat diet or something like the ADA diet. if you ask someone on the AdFatkins Diet or FrankenBernstiens diet and then ask someone on the fantastic ADA diet or a beautiful dietitian about how many carbs you should eat.  well i hope you already know you will get different answers. It’s good to see you finally stopped saying that you don’t *endorse* any one diet.  Now that you have made it clear *which* nutritional approach you promote, and which ones you demonize — defend it with factual and *current* peer reviewed research data.  Please show me where an approach based on 200 plus carbs a day and approximately 60 gms carbs per main meal promoted weight loss, lowered cholesterol, and reduced the risks associated with coronary disease.  And don’t parrot the "My dietitian told me so"  or "the ADA says"  I want to see current (within the last two years) peer reviewed data.  I’ll wait here  :- )) Arnie –

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>One question for you.  What did you eat for dinner prior to the surgery? >And is this the type of meal you normally eat?  What is your normal waking >BG?

Well, I was extremely stressed as the surgery got closer, so it could have been stress. But, I have to admit that I had a big meal the night before, steak, veggies and salad. But, perhaps that piece of chocolate cake was a bit over the top? I didn’t think it would still be effecting my bgs 12 hours later tho. I have a hard time deciding my normal waking bg’s because I work nights and get off at 8AM. Those bgs are normal, but then at 4PM when I wake up each day those are normal too. So, I don’t know. Perhaps as James the Elder says it was a liver dump? Dana "Live as though there is no tomorrow,  Love as though you have never been hurt,  Dance as if no one is looking…"       Satchel Paige

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Are you eating a snack before bed?  If not, perhaps you should try something >with some carbs, fat and protein.  I find if I don’t eat the snack, or if I >eat too little, my numbers are higher. > I have a question about night time eating. Last week I had a medical > procedure done in Day Surgery. I had to stop eating at midnight and > the operation was performed at 9AM the next morning. Because I am > diabetic they checked my blood about 8:30AM and it was 195.  After the > surgery it was taken and was 119, still nothing to eat. > My Question:  Was the 195 from what I had eaten for dinner at 7PM the > night before? And why did it come down with no food, I was asleep most > of the time (during the operation), how did this happen? > I don’t understand this.

Could be that you had a high number because of the stress incurred anticipating the surgery.  During the surgery, you had a chance to relax and your BG came down.  My husband and my daughter had their appendix out about 2 years ago.  His was first.  He had barely healed when she had to have hers out.  During this time, my BG was continually high, and I the only reason I can think of is that stress was to blame.  I did have a bit of trouble getting normal meals when he was in the hospital because that particular hospital had no cafeteria.  It was either bring food with me, or chance it on what might be in the machines.  My daughter was in a different hospital with a wonderful cafeteria that had good meals, a salad bar, sandwich bar, etc.  They had nearly 24 hour room service and a huge menu of foods to choose from.  I sometimes ate some of the food ordered for her because she wasn’t eating much.  At any rate, I can’t blame the food there because I was able to get plenty of veggies and low carb stuff.  And I was getting plenty of exercise what with walking from the parking lot, walking up and down the halls and doing as many calisthenics as I could stand.  In my case, I think it was a combination of stress and lack of sleep. One question for you.  What did you eat for dinner prior to the surgery? And is this the type of meal you normally eat?  What is your normal waking BG? — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

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Louise.. DP or not you still need to eat some form of carb in the morning to "break the fast" otherwise your glucose will more then likely continue to rise, till you have no reserve left in da liver speaking only from personal experience. RK

: I know it’s important to eat breakfast, especially for those of us who have : dawn phenomenon.  As I understand it, eating "breaks the fast" and stops the : glucose dump and a rise in BG numbers.  I’m sure there’s a more scientific : way to explain it, but that’s the best I can do. : : My question is…does it matter what you eat or do you just need to eat : something?  If your FBG is higher than you want, should you not have any : carbs for breakfast and just have protein?  I usually have a slice of 7g : carb toast for breakfast and I’m wondering if I should not have it if my : numbers are too high, and just have my protein (usually low fat sausage). : : The next time my FBG is too high (over 120), I’m not going to eat the toast : and see what my post meal BG is, but I’m curious if any of you have any : thoughts on this.  Thanks. : — : Best wishes : Louise : : Type 2 since 2000, controlling by diet and exercise : : : :

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I know it’s important to eat breakfast, especially for those of us who >have > dawn phenomenon.  As I understand it, eating "breaks the fast" and stops >the > glucose dump and a rise in BG numbers.  I’m sure there’s a more scientific > way to explain it, but that’s the best I can do. > My question is…does it matter what you eat or do you just need to eat > something?  If your FBG is higher than you want, should you not have any > carbs for breakfast and just have protein?  I usually have a slice of 7g > carb toast for breakfast and I’m wondering if I should not have it if my > numbers are too high, and just have my protein (usually low fat sausage). > The next time my FBG is too high (over 120), I’m not going to eat the >toast > and see what my post meal BG is, but I’m curious if any of you have any > thoughts on this.  Thanks. >I think this really varies from person to person.  My morning fasting >numbers are usually the highest of the day and are almost always higher than >they should be.  If I wake to >140, I will have a piece of cheese or some >cottage cheese.  If between 130 and 140, I may or may not have any toast. >Depends on what kind of bread I have in the house, and how active I’ll be >before lunch.  Probably will not have any unless I know I will be active >because I’m really not hungry at that hour.  This morning, I woke to 125. >This is the lowest morning fasting I’ve seen in a while.  I had two slices >of toast, but wasn’t regular bread.  It is very thin slices.  3 slices have >24g of carb in them.  Sometimes I will have some crackers instead of the >bread.  I should probably get some more Wasa bread.  It’s very low in carbs. >I seem to do better with my numbers when I can have some fat with my >breakfast.  And since I have a slight cholesterol problem, I’ve been using >that spread that is supposed to help lower cholesterol.  So one or two >crackers with that spread on it is a help too. >Are you eating a snack before bed?  If not, perhaps you should try something >with some carbs, fat and protein.  I find if I don’t eat the snack, or if I >eat too little, my numbers are higher.

I have been battling this problem for some time now and just when I think I have it sorted – bang, something knock me off balance. So I just start again. In my case, I have highish numbers most mornings and that has been my primary concern for some time now. However, I have found that having a fry up for breakfast ensures that my midday readings are ok and stay that way till supper time. Fry up = 2 x eggs + 2 x rashers of bacon + 2 x skinned tomatoes + 1 slice of whole meal seeded batch bread [to mop up the mess I usually make] Extra Virgin Olive Oil used to fry. I have found that if i manage to keep my BG down to 90 at bedtime then there is a fair bet it will be pretty much the same when I rise. If it is lower then my FBG will be higher. 1 x cracker with peanut butter usually does the trick but not always. Like if I have had a salad for supper then I am constantly trying to keep my BG up and end up over doing it. One thing that I have definately discovered though – it is very important to ensure that meds are taken exactly when I normally do [1800/6pm] and that I go to bed at the same time each night and rise at the same time each morning. Going to bed too late means disaster. For example – if you have to be up at say 0700 and normally go to bed at 10 pm but on one occasion you go to bed later – say 1 am – then when the alarm goes off you are still tired and your body probably throws more glucose into your system to get you moving. So if you arrise naturaly and fully rested there is not the same need for your body to give you a kick start. I have also found that having a few beers or some wine the night before, invariably causes me to have lower FBG’s than normal. But the down side to that is I must have a decent breakfast otherwise by 10am I am ravenous to the point of pain but with a BG higher than I want. HTH Pete Diagnosed 20/03/03 Type II D&E + Metformin + Gliclazide + Asprin 210lbs at Dx to 171 lbs 28/07/03 target 161.

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> I have a question about night time eating. Last week I had a medical > procedure done in Day Surgery. I had to stop eating at midnight and > the operation was performed at 9AM the next morning. Because I am > diabetic they checked my blood about 8:30AM and it was 195.  After the > surgery it was taken and was 119, still nothing to eat. > My Question:  Was the 195 from what I had eaten for dinner at 7PM the > night before? And why did it come down with no food, I was asleep most > of the time (during the operation), how did this happen?

You had a classic "Dawn Phenomenom" liver dump Dana. Regards, James the Elder

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>Are you eating a snack before bed?  If not, perhaps you should try something >with some carbs, fat and protein.  I find if I don’t eat the snack, or if I >eat too little, my numbers are higher.

I have a question about night time eating. Last week I had a medical procedure done in Day Surgery. I had to stop eating at midnight and the operation was performed at 9AM the next morning. Because I am diabetic they checked my blood about 8:30AM and it was 195.  After the surgery it was taken and was 119, still nothing to eat. My Question:  Was the 195 from what I had eaten for dinner at 7PM the night before? And why did it come down with no food, I was asleep most of the time (during the operation), how did this happen? I don’t understand this. Dana "Live as though there is no tomorrow,  Love as though you have never been hurt,  Dance as if no one is looking…"       Satchel Paige

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I know it’s important to eat breakfast, especially for those of us who have > dawn phenomenon.  As I understand it, eating "breaks the fast" and stops the > glucose dump and a rise in BG numbers.  I’m sure there’s a more scientific > way to explain it, but that’s the best I can do. > My question is…does it matter what you eat or do you just need to eat > something?  If your FBG is higher than you want, should you not have any > carbs for breakfast and just have protein?  I usually have a slice of 7g > carb toast for breakfast and I’m wondering if I should not have it if my > numbers are too high, and just have my protein (usually low fat sausage). > The next time my FBG is too high (over 120), I’m not going to eat the toast > and see what my post meal BG is, but I’m curious if any of you have any > thoughts on this.  Thanks. > — > Best wishes > Louise > Type 2 since 2000, controlling by diet and exercise

Louise, I have chosen to low carb after the ADA diet failed miserably for me. In the 4+ years since dx, I have tweaked my version of low carbing constantly, letting my meter guide me.  FWIW, my current regimen is 10g at breakfast, 20 at lunch, and 30 at dinner. I don’t snack often. If I do, it is usually cheese, meat, etc. I have discovered that skipping breakfast will cause my waking BG to continue to increase, due to DP, until about 11am. Eating an all protein breakfast will cause my BG to stop the increase at about 9am. Eating about 10g of CHO with my eggs and bacon/sausage/whatever, will almost stop it dead in its tracks. Often my 2hr PP will be slightly lower than my FBG. Strangely, 20g at breakfast will spike me. Looks like you are on the right track with some experimenting. Jim — Join us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet /server irc.undernet.org — /join #Diabetic-Talk More info: http://www.diabetic-talk.org/

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You just might find that the answer to these questions will depend if you follow a high protein and or high fat diet or something like the ADA diet. if you ask someone on the AdFatkins Diet or FrankenBernstiens diet and then ask someone on the fantastic ADA diet or a beautiful dietitian  about how many carbs you should eat. well i hope you already know you will get different answers. Sushi

: I know it’s important to eat breakfast, especially for those of us who have : dawn phenomenon.  As I understand it, eating "breaks the fast" and stops the : glucose dump and a rise in BG numbers.  I’m sure there’s a more scientific : way to explain it, but that’s the best I can do. : : My question is…does it matter what you eat or do you just need to eat : something?  If your FBG is higher than you want, should you not have any : carbs for breakfast and just have protein?  I usually have a slice of 7g : carb toast for breakfast and I’m wondering if I should not have it if my : numbers are too high, and just have my protein (usually low fat sausage). : : The next time my FBG is too high (over 120), I’m not going to eat the toast : and see what my post meal BG is, but I’m curious if any of you have any : thoughts on this.  Thanks. : — : Best wishes : Louise : : Type 2 since 2000, controlling by diet and exercise : : : :

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I know it’s important to eat breakfast, especially for those of us who have > dawn phenomenon.  As I understand it, eating "breaks the fast" and stops the > glucose dump and a rise in BG numbers.  I’m sure there’s a more scientific > way to explain it, but that’s the best I can do. > My question is…does it matter what you eat or do you just need to eat > something?  If your FBG is higher than you want, should you not have any > carbs for breakfast and just have protein?  I usually have a slice of 7g > carb toast for breakfast and I’m wondering if I should not have it if my > numbers are too high, and just have my protein (usually low fat sausage). > The next time my FBG is too high (over 120), I’m not going to eat the toast > and see what my post meal BG is, but I’m curious if any of you have any > thoughts on this.  Thanks.

I think this really varies from person to person.  My morning fasting numbers are usually the highest of the day and are almost always higher than they should be.  If I wake to >140, I will have a piece of cheese or some cottage cheese.  If between 130 and 140, I may or may not have any toast. Depends on what kind of bread I have in the house, and how active I’ll be before lunch.  Probably will not have any unless I know I will be active because I’m really not hungry at that hour.  This morning, I woke to 125. This is the lowest morning fasting I’ve seen in a while.  I had two slices of toast, but wasn’t regular bread.  It is very thin slices.  3 slices have 24g of carb in them.  Sometimes I will have some crackers instead of the bread.  I should probably get some more Wasa bread.  It’s very low in carbs. I seem to do better with my numbers when I can have some fat with my breakfast.  And since I have a slight cholesterol problem, I’ve been using that spread that is supposed to help lower cholesterol.  So one or two crackers with that spread on it is a help too. Are you eating a snack before bed?  If not, perhaps you should try something with some carbs, fat and protein.  I find if I don’t eat the snack, or if I eat too little, my numbers are higher. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

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I know it’s important to eat breakfast, especially for those of us who have dawn phenomenon.  As I understand it, eating "breaks the fast" and stops the glucose dump and a rise in BG numbers.  I’m sure there’s a more scientific way to explain it, but that’s the best I can do. My question is…does it matter what you eat or do you just need to eat something?  If your FBG is higher than you want, should you not have any carbs for breakfast and just have protein?  I usually have a slice of 7g carb toast for breakfast and I’m wondering if I should not have it if my numbers are too high, and just have my protein (usually low fat sausage). The next time my FBG is too high (over 120), I’m not going to eat the toast and see what my post meal BG is, but I’m curious if any of you have any thoughts on this.  Thanks. — Best wishes Louise Type 2 since 2000, controlling by diet and exercise

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