Question:
Hi All. Was reading the dialogue between Pete and Quentin regarding the clinical perspective of anger, its sources, and most effective way to deal with it in the thread "ASD, And The Edge It Gives Us." YMMV. Lots of different theories surrounding anger. But, just like diabetes, what is good and works for one may only create larger problems for another person. Which came first? Anger or frustration? The answers vary dependent on the situation, and at times, it can be nearly impossible for a person to distinguish the anger from the frustration. Resolving anger and frustration takes on about a gazillion different forms with nearly as many opinions on what is right and works. Again…….YMMV. I have a very dear life-long friend who absolutely has stopped venting or ranting when angry. She discovered years ago that the venting and ranting only served to reinforce the anger,and did nothing to resolve it. On the other hand, I have always found that I can resolve the anger much more efficiently and with less emotional trauma (to myself and those who surround me) by acknowledging the anger immediately, confronting the source and venting or ranting if the anger is still present. Blah! It’s over, I was angry, I dealt with it, and now I am moving on. In most cases, I can laugh and be happy with the person who angered me within minutes after confronting them with why I am angry. (this is where those lovely "I" sentences they talk about in psyche classes and support groups come in.) Marie, Caretaker
Response:
> Was reading the dialogue between Pete and Quentin regarding the clinical > perspective of anger, its sources, and most effective way to deal with it in > the thread "ASD, And The Edge It Gives Us."
When I was on the political UseNet groups a lot, I would sometimes send this link to those that tended to blow a gasket over a simple difference of opinion. I just checked and the link is still good. http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/anger.html Arnie –
Response:
Marie, everyone is indeed diffireent, I used to rant and rave but I found that didnt work for me, So my approachg is at the moment of the anger I say nothing and walk away until it subsides, Things are said in anger that arent really meant, When the anger passes, the person involved will be able to listen to me and I can listen to them and we can communicate. with civility understanding and without the emotional part of the anger. I learned, I dont need instant gratification, but that growing up means learning to wait, That is after years of therapy — In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.
Response:
Anger is a survival instinct. Now we do not live in the jungle so it may lead to consequences. Lots of people in prison over it. Our whole society is based on control of our natural instincts that were part of our heritage. Growing up is learning to control our behavior so we have a functional better society. So we can produce excess food. 
Can’t have it all. Guy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Was reading the dialogue between Pete and Quentin regarding the clinical > perspective of anger, its sources, and most effective way to deal with it >in > the thread "ASD, And The Edge It Gives Us." >When I was on the political UseNet groups a lot, I would sometimes send this >link to those that tended to blow a gasket over a simple difference of >opinion. I just checked and the link is still good. > http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/anger.html >Arnie –
Response:
> When I was on the political UseNet groups a lot, I would sometimes send this > link to those that tended to blow a gasket over a simple difference of > opinion. I just checked and the link is still good. > http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/anger.html
That’s really great! Thanks! — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/
Response:
>Hi All. >Was reading the dialogue between Pete and Quentin regarding the clinical >perspective of anger, its sources, and most effective way to deal with it in >the thread "ASD, And The Edge It Gives Us." >YMMV. >Lots of different theories surrounding anger. >But, just like diabetes, what is good and works for one may only create >larger problems for another person.
But of course, we all have different life experiences. >Which came first? Anger or frustration?
In this literal question the answer has to be Frustration. Because – frustration is a mental quandry. Anger is the product of many things one, often, is frustration. If anger were to come first before any other emotion or feeling, then what you have is an unbalanced mind. People who have this problem do not have good odds for survival because they often act/react without coherant thought before hand. Examine your own experience of these matters and always look for the cause – not the symptom. >The answers vary dependent on the situation, and at times, it can be nearly >impossible for a person to distinguish the anger from the frustration.
True, that takes breeding and discipline and once the art has been mastered [to distinguish between the two] then there is a level of control which in stressfull situation, is of survival benefit because it allows considered tought before response. >Resolving anger and frustration takes on about a gazillion different forms >with nearly as many opinions on what is right and works. >Again…….YMMV. >I have a very dear life-long friend who absolutely has stopped venting or >ranting when angry. She discovered years ago that the venting and ranting >only served to reinforce the anger,and did nothing to resolve it.
In a circumstance such as this, I would tend to believe that reinforcement as you call it is symptomatic of habitual response. By that I mean, in previous incidents when anger was not resolved by venting etc, it was assumed that the failed response was detremental because it di not seem to work. There is no evidence to suggest that this failure worsened the problem other than by causing additionl [perhaps] frustration. It just means that there needs to be an alternative response learned and the person accept discipline. >On the other hand, I have always found that I can resolve the anger much >more efficiently and with less emotional trauma (to myself and those who >surround me) by acknowledging the anger immediately, confronting the source >and venting or ranting if the anger is still present. Blah! It’s over, I >was angry, I dealt with it, and now I am moving on. In most cases, I can >laugh and be happy with the person who angered me within minutes after >confronting them with why I am angry. (this is where those lovely "I" >sentences they talk about in psyche classes and support groups come in.) >Marie, Caretaker
I have learned over many years not to get angry and how to ‘AVIOD’ being in a position where I am prone to it. There are many tactics I use to avoid sittuations which have a likely outcome that I want to avoid. With people it is very simple and I rarely have problems [IRL] The concept is simple – to be angry at someone is to acknowledge a weakness exploited by that person. That makes them become a threat. There are only two ways to deal with a threat and they are – neutralise it or avoid it. There are many ways of doing either option, personal choice determined by options available at the time. To be angry with someone is to acknowledge that you care about them or at least are aware of them – recognition. It is often more potent a weapon to not be angry and fail to acknowledge their existence at all. YMMV Pete Diagnosed 20/03/03 Type II D&E + Metformin + Gliclazide
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Anger is a survival instinct. Now we do not live >in the jungle so it may lead to consequences. >Lots of people in prison over it. >Our whole society is based on control of our natural >instincts that were part of our heritage. Growing up >is learning to control our behavior so we have >a functional better society. So we can produce >excess food. Can’t have it all. > Guy >> Was reading the dialogue between Pete and Quentin regarding the clinical >> perspective of anger, its sources, and most effective way to deal with it >in >> the thread "ASD, And The Edge It Gives Us." >When I was on the political UseNet groups a lot, I would sometimes send this >link to those that tended to blow a gasket over a simple difference of >opinion. I just checked and the link is still good. > http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/anger.html >Arnie –
Anger is a necessary response and without it, the individual is handicapped. The trick is to learn how to use natures tool to the best advantage. That is the secret. This applies to all those things that we have been provided with. If by late teenage years the techniques of dealing with your self have not been discovered then it is doubtfull you will within the next half century. Pete Diagnosed 20/03/03 Type II D&E + Metformin + Gliclazide
Response:
> Anger is a necessary response and without it, the individual > is handicapped. The trick is to learn how to use natures > tool to the best advantage. That is the secret. This > applies to all those things that we have been provided with. > If by late teenage years the techniques of dealing with your > self have not been discovered then it is doubtfull you will > within the next half century.
One thing that happens as people age and especial so if they have diabetes is that cortisol and adrenalin increase while insulin decreases. In other words, physiologically that balance shifts and it is easier to get angered. Just a word of caution. Been there, done that. This is not all about rational behavior. Frank
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anger is a necessary response and without it, the individual > is handicapped. The trick is to learn how to use natures > tool to the best advantage. That is the secret. This > applies to all those things that we have been provided with. > If by late teenage years the techniques of dealing with your > self have not been discovered then it is doubtfull you will > within the next half century. >One thing that happens as people age and especial so if they have >diabetes is that cortisol and adrenalin increase while insulin >decreases. In other words, physiologically that balance shifts and it >is easier to get angered. Just a word of caution. Been there, done that. >This is not all about rational behavior. >Frank
Thank you for pointing that out. I had forgot to mention that side of it. Awareness of the problem is a good way towards successful resolution. Pete Diagnosed 20/03/03 Type II D&E + Metformin + Gliclazide
Response:
Wow, I didn’t know that, Frank. Thanks for the info. Now what about a person who has experienced serious and long term stress from childhood on? Would their cortisol levels remain high, and does cortisol inhibit insulin? I dunno, but wondered if you might know. Bonita
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anger is a necessary response and without it, the individual > is handicapped. The trick is to learn how to use natures > tool to the best advantage. That is the secret. This > applies to all those things that we have been provided with. > If by late teenage years the techniques of dealing with your > self have not been discovered then it is doubtfull you will > within the next half century. > One thing that happens as people age and especial so if they have > diabetes is that cortisol and adrenalin increase while insulin > decreases. In other words, physiologically that balance shifts and it > is easier to get angered. Just a word of caution. Been there, done that. > This is not all about rational behavior. > Frank
Response:
Hey, Pete, maybe you can answer this for me. Due to my upbringing, anger would have been counterproductive to survival while enduring anger from someone else was the method to survival. Hence, perhaps I might have been born with some sort of natural anger, but it didn’t make it into adulthood. I still have difficulty becoming angry, and will sometimes stew and blow instead of using healthy emotional outlets for anger and conflict resolution. I’ve been in therapy, and have learned some methods that lead to conflict resolution, but usually this incorporates managing my fear level at confrontation and sticking with it through to the resolution part. Isn’t easy, but very worth it. Can this suppressed anger cause as much harm as the venting of it (which I don’t do anyway unless like Yosemite Sam I’ve had all I can stands and I can’t stands no more)? Bonita
>Hi All. >Was reading the dialogue between Pete and Quentin
regarding the clinical – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->perspective of anger, its sources, and most effective way to deal with it in >the thread "ASD, And The Edge It Gives Us." >YMMV. >Lots of different theories surrounding anger. >But, just like diabetes, what is good and works for one may only create >larger problems for another person. > But of course, we all have different life experiences. >Which came first? Anger or frustration? > In this literal question the answer has to be Frustration. > Because – frustration is a mental quandry. Anger is the > product of many things one, often, is frustration. If anger > were to come first before any other emotion or feeling, then > what you have is an unbalanced mind. People who have this > problem do not have good odds for survival because they > often act/react without coherant thought before hand. > Examine your own experience of these matters and always look > for the cause – not the symptom. >The answers vary dependent on the situation, and at
times, it can be nearly >impossible for a person to distinguish the anger from the frustration. > True, that takes breeding and discipline and once the art > has been mastered [to distinguish between the two] then > there is a level of control which in stressfull situation, > is of survival benefit because it allows considered tought > before response. >Resolving anger and frustration takes on about a
gazillion different forms – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->with nearly as many opinions on what is right and works. >Again…….YMMV. >I have a very dear life-long friend who absolutely has stopped venting or >ranting when angry. She discovered years ago that the venting and ranting >only served to reinforce the anger,and did nothing to resolve it. > In a circumstance such as this, I would tend to believe that > reinforcement as you call it is symptomatic of habitual > response. By that I mean, in previous incidents when anger > was not resolved by venting etc, it was assumed that the > failed response was detremental because it di not seem to > work. There is no evidence to suggest that this failure > worsened the problem other than by causing additionl > [perhaps] frustration. It just means that there needs to be > an alternative response learned and the person accept > discipline. >On the other hand, I have always found that I can resolve the anger much >more efficiently and with less emotional trauma (to
myself and those who >surround me) by acknowledging the anger immediately,
confronting the source – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->and venting or ranting if the anger is still present. Blah! It’s over, I >was angry, I dealt with it, and now I am moving on. In most cases, I can >laugh and be happy with the person who angered me within minutes after >confronting them with why I am angry. (this is where those lovely "I" >sentences they talk about in psyche classes and support groups come in.) >Marie, Caretaker > I have learned over many years not to get angry and how to > ‘AVIOD’ being in a position where I am prone to it. There > are many tactics I use to avoid sittuations which have a > likely outcome that I want to avoid. With people it is very > simple and I rarely have problems [IRL] The concept is > simple – to be angry at someone is to acknowledge a weakness > exploited by that person. That makes them become a threat. > There are only two ways to deal with a threat and they are – > neutralise it or avoid it. There are many ways of doing > either option, personal choice determined by options > available at the time. To be angry with someone is to > acknowledge that you care about them or at least are aware > of them – recognition. It is often more potent a weapon to > not be angry and fail to acknowledge their existence at all. > YMMV > Pete > Diagnosed 20/03/03 Type II D&E + Metformin + Gliclazide
Response:
Anger is a natural emotional response. Suppressed anger is a learned response developed over one’s lifetime through social conditioning. Suppressed anger often prolongs the duration of the emotion, and most probably does the body some harm. The body’s physiological response to anger results in the release of hormones that stimulates various organs to respond to the source. Anger must be controlled, and vented out the moment it arises through some action that releases the anger. The release of that anger can be debated, but must not result in any harm to another person. Mano Govender
Response:
"Bonita" wrote in part … > Hey, Pete, maybe you can answer this for me. Due to my > upbringing, anger would have been counterproductive to > survival while enduring anger from someone else was the > method to survival. Hence, perhaps I might have been born > with some sort of natural anger, but it didn’t make it into > adulthood. I still have difficulty becoming angry, and will > sometimes stew and blow instead of using healthy emotional > outlets for anger and conflict resolution …
Check out http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/anger.html Lots of good info there. Arnie –
Response:
>Hey, Pete, maybe you can answer this for me.
I will give it my best shot. >Due to my >upbringing, anger would have been counterproductive to >survival while enduring anger from someone else was the >method to survival. Hence, perhaps I might have been born >with some sort of natural anger, but it didn’t make it into >adulthood.
Anger is is the product of other emotions. It is not a seperate entity. Through out life, we learn to avoid getting angry. How we learn is from example and by trial and error. We try something and if the result is not what we like, then we remember that and file it away. I have been fortunate, more so than you it seems because I learned all these lessons at a reasonable and natural pace. It seems that you did not and had to cram what might have been ten years worth of experience into a much shorter time than would be natural. What you describe is response conditioning. You were confronted by anger and because you did not understand why this anger was directed at you you did not know what to do or how to react and felt fear. Feeling fear is not pleasant and of course you would want to avoid it. So you learned not to respond in a way which might provoke further anger towards you. You reasoned that if you responded to the threat in the way you wanted to that would cause continuance and therfore more fear. You took the easy option and line of least resistance which would enable you to avoid the consequences. And for what its worth – that is just about what every other person does as well. We all do, daily. We avoid the things which will result in unhappiness and which will cause fear. >I still have difficulty becoming angry, and will >sometimes stew and blow instead of using healthy emotional >outlets for anger and conflict resolution.
You have difficulty in becoming angry??? Hell’s teeth girl!! I wish I did. Seriously, I am not convinced that it is necessary for you to be able to vent your anger. How? Aggression? verbal conflict? defiance? What? > I’ve been in >therapy, and have learned some methods that lead to conflict >resolution,
From what you have told me so far I think there are a few things we can learn from you about controlling emotions. I do not know anything about you so I can only relate to my own experience and see how it might help you, if at all. I suspect that part of the answer lies in confidence in yourself and your abilities and untapped capability. We all have an image of ourselves and often it is very different from the self we allow others to see. Know yourself, accept who you are and what you are and do not assume that the traits you think are undesireable are viewed similarly by others. You might have had a rough early life but I will bet that though there are scars there are also abilities derived from the experience which are of benefit to you and others. All you have to do is to identify. >but usually this incorporates managing my fear >level at confrontation and sticking with it through to the >resolution part. Isn’t easy, but very worth it.
Me ?? I’m a cowardy custard at confrontation. I detest having to deal with it and almost always manage to avoid it by one means or another. My wife hates that. For example, when she is angry with me I will just take it all. I don’t argue, or walk away I just sit and let it all wash over me all the time thinking how beutifull she still is, especially when angry. It’s one of the things I really love about her. Her anger is not very well directed and she frequently throws things. [Another story and quite funny - looking back] She hates it when I do not respond. It frustrates her. I on the other hand can do no more, if I were to respond I would go to the extreme very quickly. I know this so it is safer to go to the other extreme – do nothing. With me its 100%+ or nothing at all. I don’t see it as a problem but as a very useful tool. >Can this suppressed anger cause as much harm as the venting >of it (which I don’t do anyway unless like Yosemite Sam I’ve >had all I can stands and I can’t stands no more)?
lol…….I do not see much of a problem. You have learned to control your anger many people would envy you that albeit you learned in a harsh environment. I’d see it as a usefull charchteristic. It can only do harm if you think that it can. There is a danger of delving into things like this too deeply and seeing things that just are not there but might be. Anger is an extreme response to other emotions either singly or more than one but anger is not a product of fear. You might say that you are angry with your self for feeling fear but that anger is no where near the anger you’d direct at another and I’d say a more accurate description would be severe disappointment and a load of other things. Confront fear? how to do that? You managed to confront yourself sufficiently enough to control the emotions which produce anger in order to lessen the anger directed toward you. There you have it. Proof that you are capable of learning to deal with this. But the way you do it is specific to you. I doubt that following examples given by others will help other than to identify areas that you might look at if you have not already considered them. What is the worst thig that can happen if you confront the thing you fear? Death. Anything else less is a bonus. Isn’t it? Have you looked death in the face? Have your fears been such that death was there as a consequence? Most people Given the option do one of two things when confronted with the ultimate penalty for getting it wrong. They either run or take whats coming and deal with it. What is beyond fear? the unknown is a dificult thing to deal with. it is often too dificult to rationalise ‘possible’ responses based upon conjecture. Once you know the answer though, it is a life changing experience and IMHO often for the better. In 1982 I found myself in a sittuation which had one of two outcomes – certain death or I would walk away unharmed. I had 1 minute and ten seconds to affect the outcome and if I made one error of judgement then the outcome would be a certain bet. Its true you know, your whole life goes past in a flash and the realisation that there is nothing you can do but deal with it one way or another is a very strange and beautiful thing. One of lifes very simple challenges. either accept it and roll over or fight it and a chance of winning the big prize. In a mere second or two I accepted the sittuation and my fate and the fact that there was little I thought that i could do. I also thought that what a brilliant liked and nothing would matter, the end was inevitable so what the hell, if it goes ok then there is a bonus and I live. That was the most calm and serene moment I have ever experienced, nothing mattered any more. Absolutely nothing. The feeling of that moment will be with me forever though I pray I never am in that predicament again. What did I learn? Kowledge does dispel fear. In this case I knew 100% that the chances were I’d die. Lady luck or my granny helped and I survived completely unharmed, physically. The knowledge of the outcome brought acceptance – no alternative – fear washed away and I just did what came to me at the time thinking it will work or not, i had no idea which but it didn’t matter at all. Later, when life returned to normal – or what i perceived as such – I realised that I had been very fortunate to have had the opportunity to know how I react at a time like that. I was so releived. I had often before, wondered if I would behave well or not. It was a hidden fear – that I would do badly and be remembered for my failure. The confidence that this experience gave me was embedded in my very core and directed me from that day on. On more than one occasion since, I have confronted bad sittuations without fear. it’s all about acceptance. All that goes through my mind is possible regret, that I won’t get to do the things that I want to do and it that, that probably motivates me to do the best I can. 100%+ or nothing at all. I think Bonita, you might consider accepting your past, it has made you what you are and you wouldn’t be here still if the lessons life has taught you were not appropriate to you. You get one shot on this world so make it a good one and for every disadvantage you might think you have there are two advantages you do have. Be positive, try not to rely on anything other than what you feel inside is right. Be your own guide. If you are wrong then you are wrong but you will learn from that and try again but never ever give up. sorry about the ramble, it was as much for my benefit as yours. I guess. HTH Pete – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Bonita > >Hi All. > >Was reading the dialogue between Pete and Quentin >regarding the clinical > >perspective of anger, its sources, and most effective way >to deal with it in > >the thread "ASD, And The Edge It Gives Us." > >YMMV. > >Lots of different theories surrounding anger. > >But, just like diabetes, what is good and works for one >may only create > >larger problems for another person. > But of course, we all have different life experiences. > >Which came first? Anger or frustration? > In this literal question the answer has to be Frustration. > Because – frustration is a mental quandry. Anger is the > product of many things one, often, is frustration. If >anger > were to come first before any other emotion or feeling, >then > what you have is an unbalanced mind. People who have this > problem do not have good odds for survival because they > often act/react without coherant thought before hand. > Examine your own experience of these matters and always
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Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hey, Pete, maybe you can answer this for me. Due to my > upbringing, anger would have been counterproductive to > survival while enduring anger from someone else was the > method to survival. Hence, perhaps I might have been born > with some sort of natural anger, but it didn’t make it into > adulthood. I still have difficulty becoming angry, and will > sometimes stew and blow instead of using healthy emotional > outlets for anger and conflict resolution. I’ve been in > therapy, and have learned some methods that lead to conflict > resolution, but usually this incorporates managing my fear > level at confrontation and sticking with it through to the > resolution part. Isn’t easy, but very worth it. > Can this suppressed anger cause as much harm as the venting > of it (which I don’t do anyway unless like Yosemite Sam I’ve > had all I can stands and I can’t stands no more)? > Bonita
Dear Bonita, As I believe I may have mentioned around here, I am a buddhist. Our ways of dealing with anger are quite different than most. We don’t believe in suppressing the anger, nor do we believe in venting it. We believe in neutralizing the anger with compassion. It is really quite a different thing. When people suppress anger, they are still angry, stewing inside and they will think of all sorts of nasty passive aggressive ways to show that anger, but they are still feeding the anger inside and maybe ratcheting it up a few more notches in the process. If you vent your anger, you usually don’t get rid of it by doing that. Venting the anger just gets everybody excited all the more, and pretty soon the anger begets more anger which reciprocates more anger, and pretty soon everyone is mad at everyone else and things are done and said that can never be taken back. So neither suppression nor venting anger will get rid of it. Anger rots the vessel that carries it ……as much as the person it is directed at if not more. So therefore it is a good idea to find a way to neutralize anger if at all possible. There was a book I read some time ago called "Anger, the misunderstood emotion" and it pretty much said the same thing. Venting anger doesn’t end it, it usually reinforces it instead. If you are angry at someone, try instead thinking how much that person is more deserving of your compassion. If you are wiser than they are, this should not be too hard. There is only one force in the whole world that is stronger than anger, and that is compassion and loving kindness. If you can master that, you can neutralize your anger, and by doing that, you save yourself from the stress and the poison and the mental anguish of maintaining anger for someone else which is a very difficult and tedious thing to carry with you. Better to dwell in peace and kindness and let anger go. Just let it go. Don’t build it up, don’t vent it, don’t hold it within and repress it. Just let it go. — Evelyn "Be wise. Treat yourself, your mind, sympathetically, with loving kindness. If you are gentle with yourself, you will become gentle with others." – Lama Thubten Yeshe
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anger is a natural emotional response. Suppressed anger is a learned > response developed over one’s lifetime through social conditioning. > Suppressed anger often prolongs the duration of the emotion, and most > probably does the body some harm. The body’s physiological response to anger > results in the release of hormones that stimulates various organs to respond > to the source. > Anger must be controlled, and vented out the moment it arises through some > action that releases the anger. The release of that anger can be debated, > but must not result in any harm to another person. > Mano Govender
Dear Mano, I read a book which claimed that venting anger does NOT get rid of it, conversely it ratchets it up a few more notches and often generates retaliatory anger, which generates more retaliation from you, etc. etc. etc. The only way to get rid of anger is not to suppress it, but to neutralize it. Consciously and purposely to do just that. It works. I know it does. I can tell you how. Here is a posting I put up a while ago on alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan. Anger Hi, How do buddists deal with anger? Is it possible to eliminate anger? Is anger caused by being self-righteous? Some people say it’s caused by fear. Any help will be appreciated. (name withheld) Hi *******, There are probably many ways……All I can share with you is the method my own teacher offered to me. He claims that the only real antidote to anger is compassion. I have mentioned before on this newsgroup that there was an individual who made my life miserable. Cruel, overbearing, even violent, this person was one real hard case. In my own suffering from this person’s actions, I never saw from whence this anger came, but only my own ego centered, "poor me" oriented, truly justified sense of outrage. My teacher Actually, I need to correct that statement. This gentle man, TOLD me, (not suggested) with a direct and clear and almost fierce look in his eyes, that I do this! Imagine how I felt about that? Hours of meditation, of long complex visualized practices, daily symbolic and real offerings, all that merit from all that effort was to be dedicated to that person…….What a quandary I was in! Somehow I had no problem visualizing dedication of merit to ALL BEINGS but when I was told to dedicate that effort to only ONE being I had a problem!?! Well I had a choice…..at that point I had to either listen to my chosen teacher, and bite the bullet, or to reject the entire concept of my chosen affiliation. If you understand what goes into such a life choice, and such a deep committment to a teacher and practice, you will realize the magnitude of that choice. Perhaps my faith in my teacher was greater than my ego-centric (albeit by ordinary standards, very justified) anger, but I did it. I gagged on the words, I felt it was distasteful and pointless but I did have great faith in my teacher, and simply did it. This in my personal experience was the single most moving evidence of the ability of these practices to literally CHANGE YOUR MIND. Because it changed mine. From an initial stance of deeply justified anger, of outrage, to deep compassionate understanding of how suffering begins, and how it is perpetuated, and to a powerful committment to end that suffering here, now, that my teacher was right. As I practiced, I began to see the person with whom I was angry as a frightened, confused child who had much less in the way of advantages than I had; One who experienced much suffering in his life. In particular much more suffering than I had. One whose entire life-view was distorted, who needed to fight and express anger himself due to intense suffering and pain. I furthermore realized that I was not nearly so disadvantaged as he was. That I had it ‘better’ than he did, since the spiritual damage was much less. I then began to see my own connection with this individual, karmically, and the relationship that ensued in this lifetime for us both. I began to see the connections over many lifetimes, and how they could perpetuate such suffering, and how the anger could continue, keeping that karmic connection going over time. Somehow my sense of compassionate energy that I generated for this individual took the next step and I began to see how this very kind of anger and pain was a thread than ran throughout time, and in many lives, affecting others too. I don’t know if this sounds trite and "too simple" to you, since it is difficult to express a process that took place in a meditative environment, at the direction of a knowledgeable teacher, who worked with the real me and my real mindset and life circumstances, but I assure you that every word I write here is true, and was born of great effort, and that it was ultimately to the great benefit of many others including myself. In any case, this practice changed my entire view and mindset. I saw the resolution of this relationship as the key to working with ALL angers, to ALL suffering. I saw how the karma it created went from generation to generation, affecting many other people. Finally I was able to dedicate my practices full heartedly and with love to this person, and I knew that I had conquered a great obstacle in my own life. That was the inner change. In REAL LIFE now, this person and I have found new connection. He, no longer sensing my (no matter how carefully hidden) hostility, and sensing instead, my genuine care and concern, is different in his treatment of me. From what it was before, has come a new understanding, a new peace. This healing also affected many other people, all those in whose vicinity we live. The relationship which was healed, was my relationship with my father. Strange how we can hate our parents and fail to forgive them more than anyone else. It has been an enormous peace for me, and my whole family. We ALL get along better now. Yes, he can still push my buttons. Yes, he is still the same person. Nothing changed him. But I am changed. And with my change, there has been an effect on him. Does that mean I NEVER get angry anymore? Not at all, but it is a lot less often and it has a lot less power over me when it does. So there you have it, one story of how some buddhists deal with anger. May my story help someone somewhere to understand a little better. May all beings have happiness and its causes May all beings be free from sorrow and its causes May all sentient beings never be separated from sorrowless bliss May all sentient beings abide in equanimity, free of bias, attachment and anger. Regards, Evelyn — "Be wise. Treat yourself, your mind, sympathetically, with loving kindness. If you are gentle with yourself, you will become gentle with others." – Lama Thubten Yeshe
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Dear Evelyn I am in complete agreement on your philosophy to deal with anger. But the very simplicity of applying compassion is not as easy for most people that do not have even have the foggiest idea of Buddhist or vedantic philosophy that teaches these principles. Most people misinterpret the control of anger to mean suppression. I know, because that is what I did. My idea of venting anger is to scream if you have to – but bring the emotion into conscious awareness by observing yourself scream, whilst ensuring that the effect of that scream has no impact on people around you as the first step. It is only when we decide to get angry in response to a circumstance that we get angry. I would use a simple analogy of six people observing a snake, but each responds in a different way such that: – the first may run our of fear – the second may worship it – the third may kill it to ‘protect’ the people around – the fourth may capture it to use as a pet – the fifth may run away from it – the sixth may kill it for dinner The snake is nothing but the snake. Each person decided consciously or unconsciousnessly on a response through their own perceptions and conditioning on a response to seeing the snake. A person on the path to enlightenment will deal with anger as you suggest – by projecting love and compassion at the source of anger. An enlightened person will decide not to get angry. Regards Mano Govender
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dear Mano, > I read a book which claimed that venting anger does NOT get rid of it, > conversely it ratchets it up a few more notches and often generates > retaliatory anger, which generates more retaliation from you, etc. etc. etc. > The only way to get rid of anger is not to suppress it, but to neutralize > it. Consciously and purposely to do just that. It works. I know it > does. I can tell you how. Here is a posting I put up a while ago on > alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hey, Pete, maybe you can answer this for me. Due to my > upbringing, anger would have been counterproductive to > survival while enduring anger from someone else was the > method to survival. Hence, perhaps I might have been born > with some sort of natural anger, but it didn’t make it into > adulthood. I still have difficulty becoming angry, and will > sometimes stew and blow instead of using healthy emotional > outlets for anger and conflict resolution. I’ve been in > therapy, and have learned some methods that lead to conflict > resolution, but usually this incorporates managing my fear > level at confrontation and sticking with it through to the > resolution part. Isn’t easy, but very worth it. > Can this suppressed anger cause as much harm as the venting > of it (which I don’t do anyway unless like Yosemite Sam I’ve > had all I can stands and I can’t stands no more)? > Bonita > Dear Bonita, > As I believe I may have mentioned around here, I am a buddhist. Our ways of > dealing with anger are quite different than most. We don’t believe in > suppressing the anger, nor do we believe in venting it. We believe in > neutralizing the anger with compassion. It is really quite a different > thing. > When people suppress anger, they are still angry, stewing inside and they > will think of all sorts of nasty passive aggressive ways to show that anger, > but they are still feeding the anger inside and maybe ratcheting it up a few > more notches in the process. > If you vent your anger, you usually don’t get rid of it by doing that. > Venting the anger just gets everybody excited all the more, and pretty soon > the anger begets more anger which reciprocates more anger, and pretty soon > everyone is mad at everyone else and things are done and said that can never > be taken back. > So neither suppression nor venting anger will get rid of it. > Anger rots the vessel that carries it ……as much as the person it is > directed at if not more. So therefore it is a good idea to find a way to > neutralize anger if at all possible. > There was a book I read some time ago called "Anger, the misunderstood > emotion" and it pretty much said the same thing. Venting anger doesn’t end > it, it usually reinforces it instead. > If you are angry at someone, try instead thinking how much that person is > more deserving of your compassion. If you are wiser than they are, this > should not be too hard. There is only one force in the whole world that is > stronger than anger, and that is compassion and loving kindness. If you can > master that, you can neutralize your anger, and by doing that, you save > yourself from the stress and the poison and the mental anguish of > maintaining anger for someone else which is a very difficult and tedious > thing to carry with you. > Better to dwell in peace and kindness and let anger go. Just let it go. > Don’t build it up, don’t vent it, don’t hold it within and repress it. Just > let it go. > — > Evelyn > "Be wise. Treat yourself, your mind, sympathetically, with > loving kindness. If you are gentle with yourself, you will > become gentle with others." – Lama Thubten Yeshe
Hi there Evelyn, I am always interested in how various religions deal with such problems as the management of anger. Your brief explanation of the buddhist techniques was interesting to me because although I am a Christian, the same techiniques are applied, just with different terminology. So just goes to show that the basic ideas (wisdom) are universal. It works. For me that’s always the real test – does it work? In the case of anger, we both agree that the steps are; 1. Acknowledge CONCIOUSLY that one is angry. 2. Try to discover why – is it because someone has given offense, or because of things beyond our control ? 3. If there is an offense, forgive the person involved and have compassion and love for that person. 4. If it is because of things beyond one’s control, accept the reality of that fact, and deal with it appropriately. 5. Very importantly, no matter what the original "trigger", accept oneself and the emotional state – it *will* pass, if you just let it go. Long term anger is NOT a good metabolic state for anyone, let alone someone with diabetes. It brings about metabolic changes that are only meant to be temporary. And that disturbs an already fragile metabolic balance if one has diabetes. I believe that "venting" is not a good idea either, although, sadly I plead guilty on occasions. It happens. I let that go too. It’s only value is in perhaps identifying the source of the anger, so that it can be dealt with appropriately. Otherwise, it simply reinforces the anger by reitterating the original trigger, over and over. One major cause of anger in people with diabetes is high bg, (or sometimes a hypo!) Let’s accept that, and again, deal with it appropriately. No guilt, just reality. Some medications or other illnesses can do the same. I guess what I’m saying is once the anger is acknowledged the next step is to determine WHY. Then apply the appropriate strategy. Thanks for your input. Annette — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hey, Pete, maybe you can answer this for me. Due to my > upbringing, anger would have been counterproductive to > survival while enduring anger from someone else was the > method to survival. Hence, perhaps I might have been born > with some sort of natural anger, but it didn’t make it into > adulthood. I still have difficulty becoming angry, and will > sometimes stew and blow instead of using healthy emotional > outlets for anger and conflict resolution. I’ve been in > therapy, and have learned some methods that lead to conflict > resolution, but usually this incorporates managing my fear > level at confrontation and sticking with it through to the > resolution part. Isn’t easy, but very worth it. > Can this suppressed anger cause as much harm as the venting > of it (which I don’t do anyway unless like Yosemite Sam I’ve > had all I can stands and I can’t stands no more)? > Bonita
Hi there Bonita, Supressed anger can be either concious or unconcious. In the first case, (concious), you know you are angry, but neither say or do anything out of fear. So you are hitting your system with two emotions at the same time. You are like a person confronted with a dangerous animal who can’t decide whether to fight or flee. When we percieve a threat to our well-being, whether it is physical or psychological, those are the two automatic responses that are "wired in" to our make-up. They really do bring about physical changes in the body – anger causes the blood to move towards the centre of the body, for instance, so that in a fight, there will be less likelyhood of marked blood loss from an injury. An angry person goes white in the face. If we decide to flee however, blood moves into the muscles (especially the legs!) A frightened person gets red in the face. Different chemicals enter the blood stream in either case. Lots of stuff gets going. Now you are doing both, like flicking a switch on and off. It’s called STRESS. It definitely can make you ill. Yet so often we are in a situation where expressing the anger can be counter-productive. I really is a worth while thing to learn coping strategies, as you have been doing, to handle these emotions in a more satisfying and long term better way. Unconcious anger (or as it is sometimes called "passive anger"), is trickier, since one is not concious to any extent that one is angry. But it’s still there, and will express itself even without you realising it. Still, it can have negative results, just as if it were concious. Again, one usually needs help to uncover the anger and it’s original source in order to deal with it effectively. When one is a small helpless child, it is a great survival tool, but as an adult, it needs to be revisited and then handled with adult measures, in order to gain peace of mind and hopefully a better life. Don’t forget, you have diabetes with all it’s metabolic disturbances in there stirring the pot as well. If you find yourself angry over something trivial or for no obvious logical reason, try taking your bg level before worrying about the psychological stuff. It can be amazing how calmly one takes life when the bg is well controlled! All the best, Annette — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Dear Evelyn >I am in complete agreement on your philosophy to deal with anger. But the >very simplicity of applying compassion is not as easy for most people that >do not have even have the foggiest idea of Buddhist or vedantic philosophy >that teaches these principles. >Most people misinterpret the control of anger to mean suppression. I know, >because that is what I did. My idea of venting anger is to scream if you >have to – but bring the emotion into conscious awareness by observing >yourself scream, whilst ensuring that the effect of that scream has no >impact on people around you as the first step. It is only when we decide to >get angry in response to a circumstance that we get angry. >I would use a simple analogy of six people observing a snake, but each >responds in a different way such that: >- the first may run our of fear >- the second may worship it >- the third may kill it to ‘protect’ the people around >- the fourth may capture it to use as a pet >- the fifth may run away from it >- the sixth may kill it for dinner
- the seventh would probably observe it to determine what response is required if any at all. In doing so may temporarily suspend an automatic emotional ‘knee jerk’ response. >The snake is nothing but the snake. >Each person decided consciously or >unconsciousnessly on a response through their own perceptions and >conditioning on a response to seeing the snake. >A person on the path to enlightenment will deal with anger as you suggest – >by projecting love and compassion at the source of anger. >An enlightened >person will decide not to get angry.
>Regards >Mano Govender
[snip] Diagnosed 20/03/03 Type II D&E + Metformin + Gliclazide
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> Now what about a person who has experienced serious and long term stress from childhood on? Would their cortisol levels remain high, and does cortisol inhibit insulin? I dunno, but wondered if you might know.
I don’t know the answer to the effect of long term stress and carryover on the hormone levels. There is hormonal communication or miscommunication amongst hormonal systems. There are three types of hormonal systems (endocrine, autocrine, and paracrine). There are nine known groupings of endocrine hormone glands. Three in the brain (pineal, pituitary, and hypothalamus), three more in the throat (thyroid, parathyroids, and thymus), two are in the abdominal region (adrenal and pancreas), and one in the gonads (testes for males and ovaries for females). Paracrine hormones include neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine. There are cortisol, epinephrine (adrenaline), and norepinephrine from adrenal glands; growth hormone from the pituitary gland, which are all counter regulatory to insulin. As serotonin levels rise, insulin secretion is increased. As dopamine levels rise, insulin secretion is decreased. All of this is the specialty of the endocrinologist. Frank
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