Question:

> Not to be too off topic, but Minimed is now Medtronic Minimed i.e. we are > part of Medtronic.  The stock is traded on the NYSE at MDT.  Overall there > are a lot more pumps than you might think out there, about 180,000 patients > are using pumps in the U.S. and probably 20K in the rest of the world, > primarily Germany, France, Netherlands and Scandinavia.

Thanks for the info Bill.  I still see it as a small customer base though, so no doubt the reason behind the large cost.  My objections to the poster were based on a need for sensitivity.  You must admit, pumps are out of reach cost-wise for a large number of people who could benefit greatly by them.

Response:

>my mistake Mack, I assumed it was another >diabetic looking for info, not someone looking >to profit off our disease. >ty.

I don’t know if he is or is not diabetic, but if he were and had any experience he would know "control" is a good word in our vocabulary. Mack Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org  In tribute to the United States of America and the State  of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and  terrorism.

Response:

>> The cost is about 5000.00.  Now as to what it is actually worth? be > more specific.  You mean the actual cost of manufacture?  Or the > savings in long term health costs and the greater control over one’s > diabetes that they allow? >Just trying to find out what the profit is one these products.  It >would seem this is a good business to be in.  Worth buying stock!

They are profitable until you either get sued, or the FDA changes the rules on you. If you call an electric supply house, you will discover there are 3 grades of electrical outlets.  Residential, which is frankly a crummy product. Spec, which is used commercial, and some homeowners insist on spec grade outlets Then there is Hospital Grade. The ratio of purchase price is about 1:1.5:5 So why does a hospital grade outlet cost 3+ times as much as a spec grade. Well, let me assure you that the manufacturing cost was not materially higher then the spec product, however the product liability insurance is a whole lot higher. Case in point #2.  Light airplanes.  Roughly 40% of the selling price of a Cessna 182 pays insurance premiums. The problem with a device like an Insulin pump, is that it involves a human life, and my guess is that a substantial portion of the $5000 ends up in the pockets of whoever sells product liability insurance. I seriously doubt the unburdened manufacturing cost of the device exceeds a couple hundred dollars. The cost of testing, certification and QA probably substantially exceeds the manufacturing cost. Case in point #3.  In the 1970’s my late father was principal investigator for an experiment that went to the moon on an Apollo mission. They built a fully function demonstrator, using commercial parts. It cost about $25,000 to build.  The actual version the flew was built by Bendix. It used Nasa flight grade parts, and was tested and documented to NASA standards (which are probably not as painful as FDA standards). It cost $500,000.  The worst part was when it finally got to the moon, the damn thing didn’t work. On going support costs are also significant. It costs money to have people available 24 x 7 to answer the phone, who actually know something… First law:  Things are never what they seem to be. As long as people can take a $5 appliance, or a $2 cup of coffee and sucessfully sue for millions of dollars. So what may be very profitable this week, you can be sued for next week. How many $5000 pumps do you have to sell to settle a 20 million dollar product liability case?

Response:

Matt, are you trying to tell us we must support a lot of lawyers when we have medical costs.  Texas has just passed a law to limit liability but it is not enough. My favorite sue bird is now looking for another car,  the fourth  in less than two years.  She won a unjustified settlement that was her own fault by my standards. The FDA protects us from previous abuse but now grossly limits competition in the drug business. Mack and I would be satisfied with a single point blood sugar device to warn of hypos.  The process to get approval for such a device would discourage any sensible businessman.   In aircraft .  I saw the case where a wing fairing, a simple piece of aluminum required over 100 lbs of paper work to get approval.   Raised the cost over 40 times. There is no answer.  So Mack and I have a problem with out a solution.  The paper work is more important than our suffering. Without the procedures we would be killed by some spammer. Another no win situation.                                                       guy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> The cost is about 5000.00.  Now as to what it is actually worth? be >> more specific.  You mean the actual cost of manufacture?  Or the >> savings in long term health costs and the greater control over one’s >> diabetes that they allow? >Just trying to find out what the profit is one these products.  It >would seem this is a good business to be in.  Worth buying stock! >They are profitable until you either get sued, or the FDA changes the >rules on you. >If you call an electric supply house, you will discover there are 3 >grades of electrical outlets.  Residential, which is frankly a crummy >product. >Spec, which is used commercial, and some homeowners insist on spec >grade outlets >Then there is Hospital Grade. >The ratio of purchase price is about 1:1.5:5 >So why does a hospital grade outlet cost 3+ times as much as a spec >grade. Well, let me assure you that the manufacturing cost was not >materially higher then the spec product, however the product liability >insurance is a whole lot higher. >Case in point #2.  Light airplanes.  Roughly 40% of the selling price >of a Cessna 182 pays insurance premiums. >The problem with a device like an Insulin pump, is that it involves a >human life, and my guess is that a substantial portion of the $5000 >ends up in the pockets of whoever sells product liability insurance. I >seriously doubt the unburdened manufacturing cost of the device >exceeds a couple hundred dollars. The cost of testing, certification >and QA probably substantially exceeds the manufacturing cost. >Case in point #3.  In the 1970’s my late father was principal >investigator for an experiment that went to the moon on an Apollo >mission. They built a fully function demonstrator, using commercial >parts. It cost about $25,000 to build.  The actual version the flew >was built by Bendix. It used Nasa flight grade parts, and was tested >and documented to NASA standards (which are probably not as painful as >FDA standards). It cost $500,000.  The worst part was when it finally >got to the moon, the damn thing didn’t work. >On going support costs are also significant. It costs money to have >people available 24 x 7 to answer the phone, who actually know >something… >First law:  Things are never what they seem to be. >As long as people can take a $5 appliance, or a $2 cup of coffee and >sucessfully sue for millions of dollars. So what may be very >profitable this week, you can be sued for next week. How many $5000 >pumps do you have to sell to settle a 20 million dollar product >liability case?

Response:

Or you could just buy a standard infusion pump. Here’s a typical one for about $2300.00. http://www.sands.ca/iv/60719.htm A bit clunky, and you’d have to do the converstion between units of insulin and mil/hour. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Skip all the ‘Zen’ of worth of pumps, and just look at reverse > engineering the components in the pump. > Doing so, you could assemble the pieces for under > 100$ or so. Here’s what you get: >    syringe – $0.50 >    stepper motor with screw drive – $10.00 >    battery – $1.00 >    micro-processor chip $10.00 >    memory chip $10.00 >    ee-prom chip $10.00 >    lcd display $10.00 >    power supply $10.00 >    misc parts $38.50 >    Total Cost $100.00 > Of course, you’d have to assemble the parts, and > then write your own micro-code to control the thing. > If you were handy, you could get it done in a week. > If you wanted to spend a little more (and do less assembly), > you could just buy a mother board with all the junk on it, > and just add the stepper motor, syringe, power supply and case. > As far as infusion sets, you’d just buy those from any of the > vendors. They have universal adaptors on them and fit nicely > on the end of any syringe. > If you wanted to get a little fancier, you could add an rs232 port > that would plug into a given glucometer to download > values, and then have the micro-code recommend bolus > and basal values. > Would anyone have an idea about how much the actual cost is for the > above > pump or any other pump. > They sell for around $4000 but how much are they actually worth? > Thanks, I am just curious. > Zbrigid

Response:

Skip all the ‘Zen’ of worth of pumps, and just look at reverse engineering the components in the pump. Doing so, you could assemble the pieces for under 100$ or so. Here’s what you get:     syringe – $0.50     stepper motor with screw drive – $10.00     battery – $1.00     micro-processor chip $10.00     memory chip $10.00     ee-prom chip $10.00     lcd display $10.00     power supply $10.00     misc parts $38.50     Total Cost $100.00 Of course, you’d have to assemble the parts, and then write your own micro-code to control the thing. If you were handy, you could get it done in a week. If you wanted to spend a little more (and do less assembly), you could just buy a mother board with all the junk on it, and just add the stepper motor, syringe, power supply and case. As far as infusion sets, you’d just buy those from any of the vendors. They have universal adaptors on them and fit nicely on the end of any syringe. If you wanted to get a little fancier, you could add an rs232 port that would plug into a given glucometer to download values, and then have the micro-code recommend bolus and basal values. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Would anyone have an idea about how much the actual cost is for the above >pump or any other pump. >They sell for around $4000 but how much are they actually worth? >Thanks, I am just curious. >Zbrigid

Response:

> The cost is about 5000.00.  Now as to what it is actually worth? be > more specific.  You mean the actual cost of manufacture?  Or the > savings in long term health costs and the greater control over one’s > diabetes that they allow? > Just trying to find out what the profit is one these products.  It > would seem this is a good business to be in.  Worth buying stock!

Go ahead, buy stock.  I doubt there are that many pumps in circulation to cater for your greed, but if you are so inclined then go for it.

Response:

>> if you have a control issue, what is your health worth > to you? >What is your problem.  Just want to know if this is a good business or not? >What a creep!

the control issue she was referring too was the control of your BGs NOT the control freak issue.  she meant nothing offensive. Mack Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org  In tribute to the United States of America and the State  of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and  terrorism.

Response:

>> The cost is about 5000.00.  Now as to what it is actually worth? be > more specific.  You mean the actual cost of manufacture?  Or the > savings in long term health costs and the greater control over one’s > diabetes that they allow? >Just trying to find out what the profit is one these products.  It >would seem this is a good business to be in.  Worth buying stock!

have you checked their websites to see what their stock market codes are and then checked their performance on the stock exchange? That’s a business related issue we have nothing to do with here. Mack Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org  In tribute to the United States of America and the State  of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and  terrorism.

Response:

my mistake Mack, I assumed it was another diabetic looking for info, not someone looking to profit off our disease. ty.

:

: >> if you have a control issue, what is your health worth : >> to you? : >> : >What is your problem.  Just want to know if this is a good business or not? : >What a creep! : : the control issue she was referring too was the control of your BGs : NOT the control freak issue.  she meant nothing offensive. : : Mack : Type 1 since 1975 : http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org : http://www.insulin-pumpers.org : :  In tribute to the United States of America and the State :  of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and :  terrorism.

Response:

> No your a creep for wanting to profit from > a valuable product for diabetics that helps > improve the quality of life. Sie dummer Stichel!

Granted, this may not be the place to look for that information, but I am a diabetic, and if I checked the financials of the MiniMed Pump out, and it was listed on an exchange and looked like a good buy, I’d buy it. I see no ethical conflict in buying stock of any kind, especially a product that is innovative and has served thousands of people well. Stock issues bring in money for the company, which in turn funds further research & development for the product or service. And there is nothing inherently wrong with profiting from something if it is done honestly. If you think making money, or wanting to make money is a bad thing, try doing without it for a while and get back to me. An undue attack for an innocuous question. kaci

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Try it was the persons reply, they didn’t indicate they wanted "stock" info. they asked what it was worth. They replied like a normal jackass. go without?.. wanna talk go without? you don’t EVEN want me to go there. because i can run circles around you for going without, especially being a T1 trying to live on a zero income!… so get back to me when you can top that.. otherwise.. piss off.

:

: > No your a creep for wanting to profit from : > a valuable product for diabetics that helps : > improve the quality of life. Sie dummer Stichel! : > : Granted, this may not be the place to look for that information, but I : am a diabetic, and if I checked the financials of the MiniMed Pump : out, and it was listed on an exchange and looked like a good buy, I’d : buy it. I see no ethical conflict in buying stock of any kind, : especially a product that is innovative and has served thousands of : people well. : : Stock issues bring in money for the company, which in turn funds : further research & development for the product or service. And there : is nothing inherently wrong with profiting from something if it is : done honestly. If you think making money, or wanting to make money is : a bad thing, try doing without it for a while and get back to me. : : An undue attack for an innocuous question. : kaci : :

Response:

>Try it was the persons reply, they didn’t indicate they >wanted "stock" info. they asked what it was worth. >They replied like a normal jackass. >go without?.. wanna talk go without? you don’t EVEN >want me to go there. because i can run circles around >you for going without, especially being a T1 trying to >live on a zero income!… >so get back to me when you can top that.. otherwise.. >piss off.

You really are a =pleasant= person, aren’t you?  You just exude friendliness…. Linda… Join us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet /server irc.undernet.org — /join #Diabetic-Talk More info: http://www.diabetic-talk.org/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > The cost is about 5000.00.  Now as to what it is actually worth? > be > > more specific.  You mean the actual cost of manufacture?  Or the > > savings in long term health costs and the greater control over > one’s > > diabetes that they allow? > Just trying to find out what the profit is one these products.  It > would seem this is a good business to be in.  Worth buying stock! > Go ahead, buy stock.  I doubt there are that many pumps in circulation > to cater for your greed, but if you are so inclined then go for it.

Not to be too off topic, but Minimed is now Medtronic Minimed i.e. we are part of Medtronic.  The stock is traded on the NYSE at MDT.  Overall there are a lot more pumps than you might think out there, about 180,000 patients are using pumps in the U.S. and probably 20K in the rest of the world, primarily Germany, France, Netherlands and Scandinavia. Bill

Response:

> No your a creep for wanting to profit from > a valuable product for diabetics that helps > improve the quality of life. Sie dummer Stichel! > Granted, this may not be the place to look for that information, but I > am a diabetic, and if I checked the financials of the MiniMed Pump > out, and it was listed on an exchange and looked like a good buy, I’d > buy it. I see no ethical conflict in buying stock of any kind, > especially a product that is innovative and has served thousands of > people well.

It is not unethical to buy stocks but I think it highly insensitive to come into a group and speak like that when diabetics who really need this product can’t afford the high cost,  I could buy a car for the cost of that small pump.  The pump may be quite cheap to produce which would rub salt into wounds for those who are trying everything they can to get one and failing because of the cost.

Response:

> if you have a control issue, what is your health worth > to you?

What is your problem.  Just want to know if this is a good business or not? What a creep!

Response:

> The cost is about 5000.00.  Now as to what it is actually worth? be > more specific.  You mean the actual cost of manufacture?  Or the > savings in long term health costs and the greater control over one’s > diabetes that they allow?

Just trying to find out what the profit is one these products.  It would seem this is a good business to be in.  Worth buying stock!

Response:

No your a creep for wanting to profit from a valuable product for diabetics that helps improve the quality of life. Sie dummer Stichel!

: > if you have a control issue, what is your health worth : > to you? : > : What is your problem.  Just want to know if this is a good business or not? : What a creep!

Response:

>> The cost is about 5000.00.  Now as to what it is actually worth? be > more specific.  You mean the actual cost of manufacture?  Or the > savings in long term health costs and the greater control over one’s > diabetes that they allow? >Just trying to find out what the profit is one these products.  It >would seem this is a good business to be in.  Worth buying stock!

By the time you and I know about a stock it is long too late.  To make money in the stock market takes a lot of work. A lot of the lazy people just found that out. Medical stocks are a big question today. Many are priced on expectations that may never come. The public is getting pretty fed up with what is going on now.                              Guy

Response:

> Would anyone have an idea about how much the actual cost is for the > above pump or any other pump. > They sell for around $4000 but how much are they actually worth? Thanks, > I am just curious. > Zbrigid

A wise man once said that something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If people (or their insurance companies) are buying them for us$4-5k, well…

Response:

>Would anyone have an idea about how much the actual cost is for the >above pump or any other pump. >They sell for around $4000 but how much are they actually worth? >Thanks, I am just curious. >Zbrigid

You need to define what you mean by "actual worth". Production cost, differential total ymedical cost over the life of a type 1 with a pump vs. MDI, economic value of enhanced lifestyle flexibility… I believe the sales price of a MiniMed is currently $5500. — Charly Coughran

Response:

>Would anyone have an idea about how much the actual cost is for the above >pump or any other pump. >They sell for around $4000 but how much are they actually worth? >Thanks, I am just curious. >Zbrigid

The cost is about 5000.00.  Now as to what it is actually worth? be more specific.  You mean the actual cost of manufacture?  Or the savings in long term health costs and the greater control over one’s diabetes that they allow? Try http://www.insulin-pumpers.org it is an online community of pumpers and has links to all the pump maker’s web sites. Mack Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org  In tribute to the United States of America and the State  of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and  terrorism.

Response:

Would anyone have an idea about how much the actual cost is for the above pump or any other pump. They sell for around $4000 but how much are they actually worth? Thanks, I am just curious. Zbrigid

Response:

if you have a control issue, what is your health worth to you?

: Would anyone have an idea about how much the actual cost is for the above : pump or any other pump. : They sell for around $4000 but how much are they actually worth? : Thanks, I am just curious. : Zbrigid

Response:

Whatever the cost it is worth it. I went on the Disetronic pump last January – had problems getting the rates right at first but I would not be without it now. Heaps better control and more freedom. My health fund paid for the pump and are also paying for the infusion sets. Would never go back to needles. It was a big learning curve. I feel more in touch with my diabetes than ever – I really know how things affect me and what to do now. I have had diabetes for 31 years (diagnosed at 1yr old). Get the Pumping Insulin book from Diabetes Australia (if you are o/s you can get it from Amazon books).  It has alot of information in it about pumps. Also Talk to your clinic educator and doctors. Contact both companies and ask them to see you regarding your queries about the pump. They also send an info pack and video. They can tee you up with people who are on pumps so you can compare notes it you want. I would go for it. Regards Jill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Would anyone have an idea about how much the actual cost is for the above > pump or any other pump. > They sell for around $4000 but how much are they actually worth? > Thanks, I am just curious. > Zbrigid

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